flame weeder

[littleminnie]

It is now time for me to buy a flame weeder. I have a gift card for amazon I can use from 5 years at my job so I guess I'll buy off amazon. I would like some recommendations. Is that extra valve thing that is sold necessary? How many BTUs should I get- like 100000 or 500,000?

[extremegardener]

Depends upon how or how much you plan to use it . If you expect to be using it alot, and for fairly broad swathes as opposed to spot weeding between stones, etc, you will probably want the higher btu's. The extra trigger valve is good for spot weeding, but to maintain paths between beds, etc, it can be more of a liability. I find the plain valve that comes with the torch to be fine, although I prefer the older style butterfly-type valve to the knob they are using now. I wouldn't recommend the backpack, unless you're doing spot weeding with a lot of walking between spots - carrying the weight of the tank is great exercise, but really hard on the knees longterm. (Younger gardeners take note - be kind to your knees so that you can garden into your old age... )
What is really worth while is the wheeled caddy for a standard size barbecue propane tank. The propane tank is heavy to haul around when full. The caddy is nicely maneuverable.

[mnjrutherford]

Flame weeder? OOO, I like that idea, that might be just the ticket in our orchard! Can you post some links?

[mnjrutherford]

www.amazon.com/Red-Dragon-VT-2-23-000-BTU/dp/B00004Z2FP/ref=pd_sim_ol_6

Somehow, this seems to be to good to be true. This could resolve issues with keeping our orchard weeded, an extremely big problem for us. It would also be used to clear areas where we want to plant trees, the margins of plantings, the ditch and creek areas that get overgrown but can't be accessed with the mowers.

Additionally, instead of having to first dig/pull, then remove the weeds, they could remain in place as carbon additions to the soil.

I am really looking forward to hearing your opinions. Particular anything that you think is a drawback to this idea.

Mike got a brand new propane tank with a gauge for Christmas. We can fill a propane tank really cheap at Costco as well. Our "spare" cash for the month is slated to go to garden "stuff". So, we are ready to buy or abandon rather soon.

[PatrickW]

I have one of these, the 400,000 btu model. I like it, and use it every year, but it's not really the miracle tool it seems like it is.

It doesn't really do anything for established weeds, unless you reburn them a number of times. For most weeds, it's just easier to pull them by hand. The weed burner is helpful for clearing stone or gravel paths. The weed burner also doesn't go well with using mulch, because you generally risk burning your garden down, and mulch simply works better.

The idea that it's good to use on grass like their advertising, is simply ridiculous. For grass you have to burn and reburn it so many times to kill it, then it just grows back from the sides. The same is true with using it to clear snow, it just simply takes so much heat to melt a significant amount of snow, that you are really much better off using a snow shovel.

I sometimes use the weed burner right before seeding a bed, because it will kill recently sprouted weeds as well as sometimes the seeds themselves. It's really most effective on very recently sprouted weeds.

The weed burner works better on some weeds than others. That means you will have the same problem as if you use chemicals, because you will select for weeds in your garden that are tolerant to burning!

In general, for killing weeds and possibly weed seeds, the stronger the better. Especially for seeds, every bit of heat will penetrate another millimeter of dirt all that much more effectively.

There's a catch however, and that is the faster you use propane, the faster your tank will freeze up. I use a 30lb tank with my 400,000btu burner, and it's too small. Supposedly I don't need to use a regulator, I can just use it on straight tank pressure, but this would be way too much so I use a regulator anyway. Without a regulator it would probably send out a 6ft flame, and freeze up in 10 minutes. Even with a regulator it generally freezes up within an hour. It's always an option to do what I do, and buy a bigger burner turned down. It's always a balance between a bigger burner, a bigger tank and more usage time before it freezes up. For me a 30lb tank is about all I can manage, as the larger tanks here are really a lot bigger.

Yes, a cart to move the tank around is handy, but I use a wheel barrel and it works fine too. The optional valve is handy, because with out it your flame will just blast full all the time. Otherwise you have to turn it down with the thumb wheel, which I suppose is okay too, but having a trigger is handy too.

Mostly, don't buy a weed burner expecting it to solve all of your weeding problems, because it won't. It will help sometimes, in a few cases, and is only worth it if you have a large garden. It's also a true power tool, and may not be safe to use around children or pets. You will also burn yourself from time to time, and may very well burn your garden down if you are in a dry climate.

You also have to be careful if you have PVC coated fence, because this is very toxic when burned.

I've done some posts:

www.patnsteph.net/weblog/2006/03/weed-burner/

www.patnsteph.net/weblog/2006/09/weed-burner-part-2/

Note the picture is of the old burner I had, and now I have a Red Dragon which works better.

[mnjrutherford]

AWEsome posting Patrick! Thank you very much. We will definately be getting a Red Dragon based on what you have said. Especially with regards to the orchard, from what you say, it will be an excellent solution for us. It was understood that we will need to repeat the process to really keep the weeds under control, but the same is true for hand weeding and chemical weeding. The enormity of the task had us looking at using chemicals this year and I was really hating the thought of taking that road. It just isn't a desirable option in our opinion.

As for snow, well, you have a little more than we do. Heck, we can light a birthday candle and clear a 10' radius! Well, that's a little exaggerated, but you get the idea. A handful of salt on the front and back steps is all the ice control we really need.

I was guessing at the new sprouted weeds. I figure that the bed could be prepped, flamed at 3 and 6 days respectively to kill off the first wave of weeds. Planted on day seven, flamed again at day 10... From there a hoe and hand weeding should do the trick. And again, the carbon from the flamed weeds should be an asset to the soil.

I also appreciate the mention of using the wheelbarrow for moving the tank around. I really like that solution!

By the by, Amazon has the VT 3-30 C, 500k btu torch for $69 and free shipping.

[PatrickW]

Jan 2, 2011 13:23:41 GMT -5 mnjrutherford said:

I was guessing at the new sprouted weeds. I figure that the bed could be prepped, flamed at 3 and 6 days respectively to kill off the first wave of weeds. Planted on day seven, flamed again at day 10... From there a hoe and hand weeding should do the trick. And again, the carbon from the flamed weeds should be an asset to the soil.

It does work pretty well for this. Someone, maybe extremegardener, said they liked it for carrots because the seeds took so long to germinate it was possible to flame again a week or so after planting. Personally, I don't flame after planting, because I worry about killing the seeds. What's kind of important here is not disturbing the ground after you burn it, because you don't want to expose fresh weed seeds. If you flame a bed, then dig trenches for the seeds, you'll notice the weeds all grow out of the freshly dug trenches.

What I like to do for example is use it with bush beans, which are pretty good by themselves at smothering weeds. Starting in early spring I prep the bed, and wait for the weeds to start growing. I flame it every week or so until the ground is warm enough to plant the beans. Then I carefully poke the seeds in the ground, being careful not to disturb the dirt any more than necessary. Then the weeds will start to grow, but they won't be too bad. I wait as long as possible to pull the weeds, because this will disturb the ground. If all goes well, I can get away without weeding until the bean plants are big enough to smother the weeds themselves. In this way, I only have to do one round of hand weeding.

I'm a little doubtful you'll find it useful for your orchard. It really doesn't work all that well on established weeds, and if you're going to keep your orchard clear all year you are going to have to do a lot of burning. What you'll have to do is diligently do it every week or so, and after a few months see if it's making a difference.

Also, just because propane may seem cheap, don't be fooled. A weed burner can use an astonishing amount of propane in a short time.

[ottawagardener]

Have you tried just laying down a bunch of overlapping cardboard boxes around your trees as a cheap mulch? Suppose it depends on how big an area it is. They also sell orchard plastic.

[mjc]

AND DON'T USE A WEED BURNER ON POISON IVY!!!!

I agree, they great on some things but fail miserably on others.

On the mulch front though, I use a lot of well rotted wood chips and for like the asparagus bed it's great in burning off everything, especially if the chips are nice and wet...it also has the added advantage of getting the hiding asparagus beetle larvae. But I wouldn't use it during the season, when the mulch is dry.

[mnjrutherford]

Have tried covering the soil with various paper and paper type products, empty feed bags, flour sacks, etc. Not good enough. I don't like and we can't afford the amount and quality of orchard plastic.

YIKES on burning poison ivy!!! Holy Cow! For anyone unfamiliar, when you burn poison ivy/oak/sumac, the irritants vaporize and become available for inhaling. Once inhaled, if you are sensitive, you will want to die.

I recognize that it will take a period of dedicated burning and re-burning to bring the orchard under control. Still a better option than chemicals.

So you all get an idea of the area we are talking about, the orchard is 70' x 70' approximately. The trees are spaced 10' apart and we have tried to keep at least a 5' radius around the trees clear, without success. I have started planting lavender between the trees in the rows to assist in keeping down weeds along the drip line we use for irrigation. There are only a few plants between 3 trees so far. There is a LONG way to go with that experiment but I do believe we will have good results.

[mjc]

Jo, talk to the guys trimming trees for the utilities...you can get them to dump loads of chips (they are always looking for places to dump chips). Mow/weed eat...short. Then spread the chips around the orchard, several inches deep...don't worry about the chips sucking up nitrogen (that only happens in the 'contact region'...which just happens to be where the weeds live).

[mnjrutherford]

Well, ya know, that is a great idea! Just one itsy bitsy problem... The guy who owns the small property next to us, that's his job. He's a supervisor. He keeps a list of folks begging for his chips. We are on the list. It's a long list...

Yep, we live in a very interesting little nook of the world.

[steev]

Serendipity strikes again! My favorite gopher killer is a lit road-flare stuffed down the hole and sealed in. Had to give them up due to their general toxicity, but they sure did the job. The propane gopher-killers used in vineyards are very expensive. Voila, the solution to my gopher problem; the flame-weeder. I think this will suck the oxygen out of a gopher burrow toute-suite That's all I ask.
Regarding the tree-chip mulch: it's a very effective idea, but be careful. Those freshly chipped prunings have plenty of carbohydrates so they grow fungi overnight. You easily get "farmer's cough" the day after you handle much of it. It mostly doesn't last too long, but it's a hacking aggravation while you've got it.

[extremegardener]

RE orchards - flaming within the drip line of tree you care about might not be a good idea. We do weed control for fruit and nut trees either by power lawn mower, or with a scythe, depending upon where they are. I would definitely not get close to a tree trunk with flame (though I have heard of someone doing this to kill a fungal infestation).
I second Patrick's caveats - flame weeders are not magic wands, and are potentially very dangerous. It took me years to figure out how to use them effectively. You really have to set up your garden for it. No plastic mulch; row covers and low shade cloths have to be removed before you can flame anywhere nearby, and piles of dry flammable stuff are a no-no, etc.
Flaming is great for newly emerged weed seedlings. I flame some beds BEFORE seeding, but my main use of the torch is for the paths between our permanent garden beds (nearly half an acre). I also maintain a bare flamed perimeter of about 2 feet around each garden area. The bare perimeters and paths have greatly reduced problems with slugs, and rodents, and perennial grasses. I flame all the paths and perimeters at least every 10 days May to August, and then less frequently right up until snow cover. It's important to keep up with it, because you want to be able to glide along quickly knocking down any new green growth, rather than trying to burn though thick masses of weeds and grass.
We have a very wet location - both soil and precipitation wise - so conditions are usually safe for flaming.

[littleminnie]

Ok I think I better not go with 500,000 btus and don't think I'll order the extra valve. Maybe I will go for the 100,000 red dragon, thanks.
I plan to use it for killing germinating weeds prior to seeding a bed or after seeding a slow germinating seed and for disinfecting metal things and possibly burning planting holes into plastic mulch or cardboard.