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Post by castanea on Apr 25, 2011 1:12:03 GMT -5
Has anyone grown these or eaten them?
I am aware of the toxicity issue.
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Post by cortona on Apr 25, 2011 5:11:05 GMT -5
cicerchia is an old legume in past times largerly used in italy, i know about the toicity but it is a problem if you eat tons of it, i can buy it at the supermarket so i think is almost sure!
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Post by michedealseriana on Apr 25, 2011 5:46:02 GMT -5
Where I am (Lombardy, in the Northern italy) cicerchia is traditionally unknown, but I have sown this bean in 2007 and 2008. My variety was "Locale scura", originally from Puglia. The creeping plant is similar to chickpea, but seeds are more like lupin. I've never eaten Cicerchia's peas because I picked few seeds. The documentation is abundant in Italian. The best document is here: www.google.it/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.parco3a.org%2FMediaCenter%2FAPI%2FRisorse%2FStreamRisorsa.aspx%3Fguid%3DB1F95BBB-122A-462B-8951-36C49C53A77A&rct=j&q=manuale%20corretta%20prassi%20produzione%20cicerchia&ei=8U21Ta6EIMnIswbVm7HgDA&usg=AFQjCNEgpdZyLOVkM8koWf_DGZxKYwch-w&sig2=q8HtPVRTlX-2i-DmZqvoeQ&cad=rjaThe question of the poisonous seeds is explained in the text (page 2): (traslate into English) The compound most "disturbing" in terms of health is certainly represented by a neurotoxin (ODAP, which stands for beta-N-ossalil acid alpha-L-beta-diamminopropionic) present in all the organs contained in the seeds of the plant and to varying degrees from 0.3 to over 1 mg per g, depending on the genotypes. This molecule, when taken over certain amount (eg, continuous power with an important fraction of the diet consists of grass pea) induces a severe syndrome to the nervous system in mammals (latirism). And for this, is recommended for this type of grass pea a "moderate" and "discontinuous" consumption, in the human and animal feeding. |
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bertiefox
gardener
There's always tomorrow!
Posts: 236
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Post by bertiefox on Apr 25, 2011 6:05:42 GMT -5
Is the toxin really any different in type, other than perhaps in degree, to many other beans most of which are toxic without being thoroughly cooked?
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Post by michedealseriana on Apr 25, 2011 6:48:25 GMT -5
Latirism was a common disease in Mediterranean countries until XX century, but it is only related to feeding cicerchia (the term "latirism" comes from the Latin name of the plant, Lathyrus sativus).
The paper I've posted does not say that the harmful compounds are destroyed by cooking. So cicerchia's toxines should be different from those of the bean.
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 25, 2011 7:34:46 GMT -5
I used to grow these all the time, though not for eating (the flowers are often an incredibly deep and brilliant blue) There was a time when some of the lentils coming into this country were riddled with it (two or three good handfuls per 5lb bag of lentils) those lentils have since cleanded themselves up and a cold frost took my seed. Is the toxin really any different in type, other than perhaps in degree, to many other beans most of which are toxic without being thoroughly cooked? Yes, it is VERY different. The toxins in grasspeas are not affected AT ALL by cooking. The basic concept is sort of as follows, if you eat very very small amounts over very infrequent periods you'll likey be alright, you body will flush out the toxins before they build up. If however you eat a LOT of it over a very concentrated period of time (the usual figure is something along the line of 60-70% of your diet over 5-6 months) you can get Neuro-Lathyrism. Neuro Lathyrism is a condion that can PERMANENTLY paralyze you plus (if you are young and your bones are still growing) leave your limbs twisted. There are also conditions called Cardio-lathrysim and angio-lathrysim that can cause damamge to the heart and circulatory system. The problem is that a lot of the people in the areas when grasspea is still a common staple (It's very big in Bangladesh, and parts of India) really do eat it at those quantities, as they have no choice. Grasspea is unusually tolerant to drought, so its often the only plant left prodcing when the rains don't come. Speaking for myself, I really would not reccomend this as a food plant unless you are really, really desperate. If you feel you must add it, try going to a flower cataloge and looking up "Indian pea" thats the bigger version. The flowers are less concentrated and a bit less diverse(you'll only get blue and rarely pink while the wilder versions can also come in white, red, yellow and a lot of other colors (basically any color a sweet pea can come in is somewhere in the grasspea genome as well) but it's a paler skinned version, which usually means less toxins (there's supposed to be a version that was bred in Syria around 2000 that is so low it's functionally harmless, but I'm not sure if it has been relased to the general public yet. Last I heard they were testing it out in India and thr Sudan.) |
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Post by steev on Apr 25, 2011 13:24:48 GMT -5
Interesting plant. Think I'll look into its value as potential poultry feed. While I suppose there would be the same toxicity issues for the bird, I wonder whether the toxins would be passed to the eggs.
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 25, 2011 14:32:49 GMT -5
Interesting plant. Think I'll look into its value as potential poultry feed. While I suppose there would be the same toxicity issues for the bird, I wonder whether the toxins would be passed to the eggs. There are and bear in mind that you have a LOT less control on how much a bird eats than on how much you eat. There was time grasspea was popular as a cattle browse, until someone noticed that the cattle were developing neuro-lathrysim as well. |
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Post by castanea on Apr 25, 2011 19:42:13 GMT -5
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Post by castanea on Apr 25, 2011 19:44:15 GMT -5
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Post by castanea on Apr 25, 2011 19:47:38 GMT -5
Does anyone know how the edibility differs between lathyrus sativus and the other lathyrus?
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 25, 2011 20:55:17 GMT -5
Does anyone know how the edibility differs between lathyrus sativus and the other lathyrus? The other members of Lathyrus are even worse, most of them are toxic enough to be life threatening in more than trivial amounts. The only other ones whose seeds were ever eaten, to my knowledges is Lathyrus alphaca (or it may be aphaca I've seen both ) and that was what you ate when it got so bad even your sativus died. Oh and for anyone who wants anything on the first list, Thompson and Morgan has pretty much all of the species listed (except maybe the Lathyrus tingitanus (it was part of the test species mix, but they don't offer that anymore) |
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Post by castanea on Apr 26, 2011 0:05:37 GMT -5
Lathyrus tuberosus apparently has a tuber that is tasty. Now to find some seeds....
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Post by atash on Apr 26, 2011 13:00:08 GMT -5
BlueAdzuki, I too have grown L. azureus just for flowers. You plant them here in the autumn, and they bloom in the spring. Unfortunately the flowers are only clear blue in one direction, and they tend not to face clearly outward. At least, none of the ones I have grown show their blue faces well. I used to have a nice colony of a more striking blue pea, Parochetus communis, until a severe winter thinned its ranks, then disease and competition finished it off.  It's not very coldhardy. Looks very much like a clover and makes a better lawn. Stays low, neat, and tidy. Blooms in mildly cool weather spring and autumn. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 26, 2011 15:10:56 GMT -5
BlueAdzuki, I too have grown L. azureus just for flowers. You plant them here in the autumn, and they bloom in the spring. Unfortunately the flowers are only clear blue in one direction, and they tend not to face clearly outward. At least, none of the ones I have grown show their blue faces well. I used to have a nice colony of a more striking blue pea, Parochetus communis, until a severe winter thinned its ranks, then disease and competition finished it off. It's not very coldhardy. Looks very much like a clover and makes a better lawn. Stays low, neat, and tidy. Blooms in mildly cool weather spring and autumn. I have seed for that one, as well ( I got if after you recommended the flower in an earlier thread). It's a little two warm for my area (and definitely for yours0 but thanks to my weed sorting I also have a small amount of Centrosema virginianum (spurred butterfly pea) which can be blue (though pale purple is more common) As for facing out, that's really a factor of which version you have. What I was growing was an older more primitive andmuch smaller version than the azureus and albus versions on the market. I never had trouble with the flowers all facing well on that one, maybe the thinner flower stalks make the flowers more receptive to following the light. The color was a lot deeper as well The tradeoff was the flowers (and whole plant) was a lot smaller (maybe domestic vetch size) (not really much of a tradeoff, since the also shared the regualr peas little trick where the smaller version also matured faster it was flowering from seed in about a month and a half and I had mature seed in two) I'd happily pass around seed for it, if I had any. But the second year I grew it we had a severe last minute cold snap and all of the seedlings died. And by then the lentils I was pulling from had realized their ubiquity and changed suppliers so no ability to repenish. In terms of good color, the only other adivice I can give is to use that "bean" rule but in reverse. If you are growing to eat, select for white flowers and pale seeds (as close to white as you can get). On the other hand If you are going for bright flowers, it's best to select for the darkest seed you can, high seed pigment often translates to high flower pigment (the ones I was selecting for had gotten to a mixure of salt and pepper seeds with a handful that had that grey with tan and black spots look that some of the lupines get) |
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It's not very coldhardy.