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Post by rustybucket on Jul 14, 2011 20:18:07 GMT -5
Does anyone have any experience with Fleener's Topset Onion? I planted some tiny topset bulbs in spring. They took some time to begin growing and then grew into a rather large round white bulb (large for a topset onion bulb). The tops then died back. Rather than risk losing them to wet weather in-ground, I dug them and put them aside to cure.
Are Fleener's topset onions grown the same way as other topsets? Are they fairly hardy? I assume I didn't get topsets this year because they were very small and spring planted. Any info would be appreciated.
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Post by mnjrutherford on Jul 15, 2011 10:05:09 GMT -5
I'm new to alliums in general so I don't have any answers for you.
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Post by Leenstar on Jul 15, 2011 22:27:51 GMT -5
I am on year 2 of messing around with topset onions. I got my strain from a member of the seed saver's exchange. While it sounds like we have different cultivars, your question echoes my plan/approach last year. I'll tell you what I saw here is the general chronology of events
1. In spring I got a bunch of French red shallots and Grandma Pfieffer's walking onion from Curzio of the seed savers exchange (he has a website and has some pick and details of his experience with these alliums). Curzio suggested fall planting but I wanted them in Spring to mess around with them.
2. I planted them in early spring at a community garden plot. The shallots did really well and the top setting onions definitely lagged behind. Eventually they started putting up some small top sets. I wanted to propogate them in preparation to bring them to what would eventually become my home garden. I took the top sets off the top and tried to plant them right away as they got to be about 1.5cm in diameter.
3. After taking the topsets off most of of the plants, I was disappointed to see no real growth for any of the planted topsets. The bases of the onions without topsets swelled up larger than I thought walking or topsetting onions were supposed to do. They formed actual bulbs. This is not to say they were big onions only that I thought topsets made leek-like shanks of large green onions rather than 5-6 cm diamter bulbs I got.
4. Disappointed with the failure of sprouting of the daughter topsets, I dug up the bulbs after the greens had died back. The bulbs were all rather large. At this time I had my new site at my new house. While it wasn't finished, I was eager to get stuff going. In september I planted them at my new house garden.
5. Going back to my community garden plot in late fall (early October) to clean it up, I did see some sprouts of the topsets that I had written off. I dug them up and brought them home.
For clarity I now had two populations:
1. Parent plants going from bulbs that grew all summer and their side shoots that were transplanted in the early fall. I also kept a small number of bulbs (10 or so) in the house in case my transplants died in the garden
2. Some small daughter topsets of population 1
The first generation transplanted bulbs went on to grow large impressive leaves well into December and could be seen sticking out of the snow in later December. I did mulch around their bases well before frost.
The Daughter topset population (very small) was over wintered amongst a bunch of carrots I was attempting to overwinter in a cold frame. A few of the daughter topset were also kept inside as an insurance policy against winter.
In the Spring the parent population that had such impressive fall growth into winter picked up where it left off as soon as the frosts ended. They made for really impressive stalks with 2 cm topsetting bulbs almost a yard tall.
The daughters over wintered did okay with small modest stalks and small subscentimeter topsets on their stalks.
Spring planted daughter and parent bulbs seemed to show about the same growth pattern as the overwintered daughter population.
General Patterns and observations
1. Spring planting results in smaller plants. If allowed to go into fall they will likely enlarge if left for another year
2. Fall planted plants demonstrated much larger and more robust growth. The population planted in the fall from did much better in terms of size and general robust growth than its same generation peers planted in the spring
3. Spring planting seems to work in terms of propogation (more side bulbs formed from the bases) but worse and smaller topset production. Spring planting seemed to expand my overall population but transplanting them back into the ground in the fall resulted in better plants the next year and much more impressive daughter bulbs. In terms of larger bulbs this might be a more productive approach but getting the daughter topset makes me feel better about maintaining my plant stock.
I need to see how a parent bulb left in the ground or fall transplanted compares to a topset daughter bulb planted in the fall. I suspect that the transplanted older generation plant will do better since it will create multiple side bulbs where as the daughter topset bulb will take a season to grow big enough to create side bulbs.
Probably more than you wanted.
I seem to be seeing the same events with some potato onios I got this spring and planted. Small disappointing plant but more bulbs than I started with which will be transplanted out this fall.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 16, 2011 0:28:53 GMT -5
My strategy for the earliest spring green onions, is to allow topsetting onions to grow the previous season in the location from which I will harvest them. It doesn't matter if I plant them anytime from March through mid-August, they will produce very early green onions for me. A week after the main snowcover melts I will be harvesting them (sometime in March).
Winter planted bullbils (October through March) are smaller in the spring, and take longer to reach desirable harvest size (about May).
Topsets are produced about mid-July from either method. I plant them for harvesting during the summer and fall, and I also plant a row for harvest first thing in the spring.
My daddy's strategy is a bit different. He saves bulbils in a box in the garage overwinter, and plants them every few weeks during the entire growing season. And he keeps a perennial bed of them for eating first thing in the spring and for bulbil production.
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Post by Leenstar on Jul 16, 2011 18:14:29 GMT -5
I think i asked this previously but don't think i was clear on the answer.
Joseph: When you harvest your spring green onions these are from last years growth. I would assume whatever you left in the ground are side shoots off the original bulb.
I get about 4-5 side shoots. So assuming you get something similar:
1. Do you dig the whole bunch up relying on bulbil plantings to fill/stock the next years growth?
2. Do you remove some % of the collection leaving a mature bulb in the ground again? (Like taking 2-3 from a shoot collection of 4-5 to use my example).?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 16, 2011 20:41:56 GMT -5
Mature onions that overwintered in the ground grow in the spring as a clump... 4-5 shoots is about average. The roots are all intertwined and often times they share the same root system, so I dig up the whole clump. With my soil in early spring there is no pulling a single onion: Whole clumps have to be dug.
I have a perennial patch at home that grows wild. I only harvest a small percentage of those. Mostly they do their own thing. If I need extra bulbils for the field I get them from there.
In my fields I harvest 95% of the crop first thing in the spring, leaving enough plants to produce the bulbils I want for planting in July.
I am very cavalier with top-setting onions: I till my fields in November. There are always top-setting onions that didn't get harvested. They get tilled under in the fall. Before my soil is dry enough to till or plant in the spring they produce a tremendous crop of volunteers.
I don't know if there is genetic variation in my population, but I typically plant bulbils from plants that produce 3-5 large bulbils rather than 20-40 smaller ones. I figure this will result in faster growth and quicker harvest.
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Post by Leenstar on Jul 17, 2011 22:17:07 GMT -5
I have been getting the impression these things are nigh indestructible.
Joseph- are you noticing a change towards topsets of larger size smaller number? My small tops sets don't seem worth the effort and I am thinking of moving the lot of my plants as the bed they are in now need s some serious work and they aren't well situated.
I like the idea of a separate "stock" area that you can always go back to if needed.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 24, 2011 20:05:53 GMT -5
I have been getting the impression these things are nigh indestructible. Joseph- are you noticing a change towards topsets of larger size smaller number? I noticed while planting this summer that I don't always favor the plants with fewer bulbils.... I've done some research... I counted how many bulbils were on topset onions in my original patch. On a per plant basis this is how many bulbils they contained. 01-05 ------------ 45% 06-10 ------ xx-15 ---- xx-20 ----- And this is how they counted out after a few generations growing in my fields. 01-05 --------------- 60% 06-10 ---- xx-15 ---- xx-20 --- I can't tell if the difference is due to environment or genetics. I noticed while I was counting that clumps that were growing together tended to produce similar numbers of bulbils, I presume because they originated from the same topset. I hope to conduct an experiment this fall by planting topsets with about 3 bulbils in one patch and topsets with about 20 bulbils in another patch and see how they turn out next summer. My onions do not grow well in deep shade. And they like some water during the growing season. They survive sometimes in the desert, but they don't thrive there. |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Jul 25, 2011 6:46:14 GMT -5
Guessing, I would say that genetics depend on environment. Still, I am amazed that you are driven to collect such data. Clearly, I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, but I would probably be out in the rain if it was not for the rest of the forum members. Both the "science" people like you, and the "experience" people. I really appreciate you.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 25, 2011 21:56:11 GMT -5
The results obtained from topset onions depend upon when and what is planted. I've got 4 different and totally reworked the bed last fall. All were restarted with medium topsets just before the ground froze last fall. There were about 20 of each variety. Without exception, every single one came up this spring as a single plant and are still that way. Now they have medium or large topsets. Those could be planted back now and growth would be almost immediately. By fall, they would be dividing. Those would come up as clumps next spring. They are truly amazing and although I would like to have more space to study them, there would not be anything which hasn't been learned and forgotten about them over the past several hundred years. (My varieties are Catawissa, Heritage Sweet, Red Egyptian, and True Egyptian.)
Martin
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Post by mnjrutherford on Jul 26, 2011 5:37:16 GMT -5
Is a "topset" onion the same as a "walking" onion? I was trying to look up some photos and the terms appeared to be used interchangeably?
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Post by paquebot on Jul 27, 2011 0:03:39 GMT -5
Topset and walking onions are one and the same. They "walk" by having their stalks tip over and land on the ground a good step away from the base.
Martin
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Post by mnjrutherford on Jul 27, 2011 6:04:10 GMT -5
Fascinating.
As a child, in Northeastern Florida, we had something I was told was "wild onions". These were, if memory serves, a type of topset onion. It had the bulbils on top and I THINK, I THINK, I observed the walking habit.
I gathered some once to taste. The bulbs were very small and while I don't recall the flavor, I do remember thinking that the flavor was sweet. Now I wish I knew more about them...
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Post by paquebot on Jul 27, 2011 15:29:03 GMT -5
You'll find those "wild" onions from Florida to Texas and mainly the southern halves of the states involved. Also there are several slightly different varieties. They are very particular about length of daylight and grow for a long period down there. The bulbs are round and were the original pearl onions. They get to be about an inch wide in Mobile but not much bigger than a pea in Wisconsin. The topsets won't even sprout until early fall when the days are short and then they grow for only a short time in the spring.
Martin
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Post by mnjrutherford on Jul 27, 2011 15:51:19 GMT -5
The original pearl onions? You're kidding me! I'll be darned!!! I adore pearl onions. I was hoping that I would get to them eventually. Can you tell me a bit more? Are they the same as what some stores sell as "boiling" boiling onions?
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