fruit trees in pots

[kwilds]

I have been reading with great enthusiasm all the posts here in the orchard forum. I would have hundreds of fruit trees if I had the space but at the moment (and for the foreseeable future) I have to be content with the .3 acre that I have.

I am particularly interested in fruit trees of all kinds that can be grown on their own roots (from seed) but I realize that the chances of me getting something good is going to take time as I wait for seedlings to reach fruit bearing age as well as space to grow out enough trees to select from! My thought is to grow seedlings in pots until they are bearing fruit and then plant the ones that look promising. I have some apricot seeds from 2 different varieties in cold storage now and want to get some plum and apple as well.

My question is - what is the chance of my seedlings growing well enough in pots to judge them fairly?? Or should I just continue living vicariously through this forum until I have enough acreage to play in!!!!

[12540dumont]

Well, Leo has a green thumb and I had an ache for acreage. At the time we were living in a condo. (ewwww) Together we put things in pots and watered them up. We trimmed, fertilized and re-potted. All on a wee patio.

It lets you play with root stocks and grafting and even making bonsai!

Some 3 years passed and we finally moved to my father's farm. There I was, I had trees of every variety type and size. We got landscaping, and well I'd love to tell you that the fruit trees took to the transplanting well, but they didn't. Some I planted too deep, I didn't paint the trunks white or put them in tree tubes, so they got sunscald and borers. Some of the trees got fireblight. But some are now 20 ft. tall. Leo has to prune them on a ladder.

So, stone fruits fared poorly, Malus and Citrus did well.

Redwoods didn't like it and the cedar also croaked and the nine bark. Maples did very well as did catalpas, oaks, poplars, junipers, lilacs, roses, carpinus, corylus, willow, elm, mulberries (see Leo in Mulberry tree!)

When we came to the farm, there was one walnut and about 5 Lebanese Cedars. Now it's a cornucopia of trees. Keeps the house cool, shades my new sprouts, gives you a place to sit in a hammock. (If you're like Steev and have a hammock). I think my $1000 worth of seeds and seedlings have turned into a beautiful mature garden worth many times that if you can put a price on beauty or shade on a hot day.

So, dreams happen when you put effort into them. Or as Atash says, what you pay attention to comes to fruit. So, start your orchard and good luck. Holly

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[kwilds]

Thanks Holly - that's very encouraging. The way I see it is I can't really lose by trying. Even if nothing grows well at least I will gain some knowledge and experience!

[Hristo]

.3 acre is not so small space. You can trial a lot of seedlings on it. How many, depends by the species. For example apples are easiest to trial, because there are some really dwarf rootstocks. Check this:
blip.tv/midfex/showcase-gene-yale-s-amazing-backyard-orchard-385698

There are some relatively dwarf rootstocks for most Prunus species.

For non-dwarf rootstock planting 3-4 trees in 1 hill is good option too. That way they are forced to grow smaller.

Here is one method for fruit breeding in a limited space
- Plant the rootstock as close as appropriate according to the type of rootstock and let them establish. Meanwhile plant the seeds.
- When the seedlings grow big enough get bud(s) and graft on to the rootstock - if it's very dwarf (like m27 for apples) graft 1 "seedling variety" per rootstock, if it's moderately dwarf graft 2 or 3., if it's not dwarf graft 4+.

On very dwarf established rootstock you can get fruits in only 2 years

When they fruit and if you do not like it, just cut them and graft a new buds/scions. That way you can evaluate fair amount of seedlings in a limited space. But bear in mind that very often the quality of the fruit in the first 1-2 years is not representative for it's potential, so do not be fast to judge (i.e. cut)

[castanea]

It's hard to judge anything fairly when it's goriwng in a pot, but you can judge things somewhat. If an apple tree is healthy and produces large tasty apples in a pot, you have a winner. If an apple tree produces small tasty apples in a pot, you might have a winner. If an apple tree in a pot produces a tree with sour deformed apples, you have a loser. If an apple tree produces nothing in a pot, you just don't know.

You can also grow chestnuts in pots.

[kwilds]

Hristo - my idea was to try some of these fruit seeds growing on their own roots rather than grafting. I am experimenting with grafting as well (more for apples though - the apricots, nectarines, peaches and plums I want to try on their own roots) You have a very good point in trying several varieties on one rootstock and I think I will do that for sure with a few apples want to try! And I have space on an established peach tree that lost a branch 3 years ago in a windstorm that I could try grafting nectarines to. One thing I would love to do is take out the lilacs along my driveway and plant a row of apples on semi dwarf or (even standard) rootstock and espalier them. Haven't convinced hubby to say goodbye to the lilacs yet though!!

Castanea - Good points for sure. Maybe through my "orchard in pots" I'll discover some great patio varieties of fruit ;-)

[canadamike]

Many things grow well in pots, peaches and nectarines are notorious for that. ).3 acres is more than the average city lot with its 0.125 acres, more than double actually. Other than dwarfs, for multiple grafting, I prefer semi-dwarf. A long time ago, I had a lot of fun on a Norland apple tree, naturally semi dwarfé Dwarfs are not very good in my neck of the woods, I do not know where you live, so it might be different.

Along walls, you might look at espaliered trees. We don't do much of it in North America, but I have seen many walls in France and Belgium covered with espaliered fruit trees. The neat thing about them is that the fruit trees along your walls grows lots of fruits that do not take space but also benefit from a micro climate...and if you are stuck with something like chain link fence, do not see them as ugly, make sure you will use them for vines like grapes and kiwis, northern or not...

Hristo sent me a link a few weeks ago of a guy growing over 100 cultivars of apples in a small backyard...much smaller to my estimate than 0.3 acres...

Go for it

[bertiefox]

Looking at the typical French orchard nowadays, although the trees which are extremely dwarf are planted in the soil, they are all continually fed and watered by drip irrigation which is why despite being so closely planted they bear such heavy crops of perfectly formed apples etc. There's no reason why the same principle couldn't be applied to pots with drip feeding and an electronic timing system. You could maintain any number of specimens that way.

[Hristo]

I didn't realize that growing them on their own roots is mandatory for you. Then peaches/nectarines are one excellent choice, because they bear fruit in 2 years from seed (assuming your climate is right) when the tree is still quite small, so you can evaluate many seedlings in very short time. Most other species need at least 3-4 years.

[coppice]

Grafting is one skill set you can certainly develop on a .3 acre plot. Bonsai is another. Your lack of real estate may evoke (or I'm hoping it evolves), is to forage.

I'm not well. I don't walk far. I'm also living on a very limited pension. its that 'perception' that is the nuts & bolts of foraging I want you to work on. Ya' gotta be able to see what your doing.

Caring for trees in pots is a practice that uses soil of different structure than your door yard garden can provide. This becomes acute when trees live for a very long time in pots.

It leads back to some questions you have partly answered for yourself; IE what'll fit in my space. I want you to add to your search, the acquisition of soil components to keep trees in.

For the hobbyist who keeps a couple bonsai, crushed granite grit (a poultry scratch) and crushed bark mulch can be bought at feed and farm/big box stores in fifty pound bags. If your hobby runs away with you, your gonna be looking for a stone mill and a saw mill to get your soil components by the ton, and do your own sifting. The right soil components is the easy part.

Re-training your eye to both research trees suitable (on the web) to your space, and find them in situ, to see if what your researched is actually the tree you want, takes some practice, but it aint mastery of a violin, its more of learning how to ride a bicycle.

Why do you need to "see" these trees? And do all this silly searching? because of course the trees you want all make seed, and volunteers, and that seed and volunteers are just about universally unwanted by everybody else--except you.

I just walked about with ruler in hand and my crab apples run between seventeen and twenty-eight inches tall and several of them have fruit on them as I write.

My one pear and one beach plum are too recently coppiced to bloom yet...

it took me about a year to realize what I thought I knew about gardening, was not equal to the needs of japan maple seedlings that littered the yard I was living at, years ago. It took another couple to get some nice saplings that were healthy and growing well, once I stopped trying to fit a tree into dirt for a tomato.

Your trials and reading if you keep at it will lead you to where you want to grow.

[kwilds]

Thank you every one for your comments!

Hristo - Its not necessarily mandatory that they grow on their own roots - its more an issue of people say it can or shouldn't be done and I have a tendency to do things that "can't" be done just to prove people wrong!! That's what I love about this forum - people here think more outside the box. I learn much better by doing than listening to what I should do!!

Coppice - your comparison to fruit trees in pots needing to be treated more like bonsai is actually very much what I was thinking! As you said, annual potted veggies like tomatoes can be grown in whatever garden soil you would grow them in in any other garden as they get pulled up at the end of the season and new soil used the next year. I am VERY interested in soil, its structure, composition and the differences in soil needs for different plants. I compost everything and have a small herd of rabbits that contribute to my soil health. Our native soil is a terrible clay that is nearly impossible to grow anything decent in! Almost all of my garden area is in raised beds and the soil in all my beds is all wonderful, healthy and easy to grow in. They are meant for annual crops of veggies though and I do realize that that soil may not be suitable for trees in pots.

On another note my husband has a mandarin orange tree that we have grown in a pot for 5 years now - anyone know how long a citrus tree takes to produce fruit?? Its a beautiful plant even if it never flowers, we keep it outdoors in the summer but bring it inside from October-April as we live in Canada (zone 5!) One of my favourite houseplants in the winter!!

canadamike and bertiefox - I am definitely going to start some espaliered apple trees. I have a perfect spot for them alongside the house. I just love the whole idea of espalier! I might try some pears too. We have a full sized pear tree already that bears heavy crops every year but I'd like to try some different varieties too.

I am off to go read more about bonsai now!! Or maybe I'll go and pot up some apple rootstock . . .

[grunt]

A hint to get your pear tree producing at a younger age = either plant it at a 45 degree angle, or bend the top of the whip to a horizontal plane. It seems to fool the tree into thinking it's older.

[castanea]

Aug 28, 2011 11:13:17 GMT -5 kwilds said:

Thank you every one for your comments!

Hristo - Its not necessarily mandatory that they grow on their own roots - its more an issue of people say it can or shouldn't be done and I have a tendency to do things that "can't" be done just to prove people wrong!! That's what I love about this forum - people here think more outside the box. I learn much better by doing than listening to what I should do!!

Coppice - your comparison to fruit trees in pots needing to be treated more like bonsai is actually very much what I was thinking! As you said, annual potted veggies like tomatoes can be grown in whatever garden soil you would grow them in in any other garden as they get pulled up at the end of the season and new soil used the next year. I am VERY interested in soil, its structure, composition and the differences in soil needs for different plants. I compost everything and have a small herd of rabbits that contribute to my soil health. Our native soil is a terrible clay that is nearly impossible to grow anything decent in! Almost all of my garden area is in raised beds and the soil in all my beds is all wonderful, healthy and easy to grow in. They are meant for annual crops of veggies though and I do realize that that soil may not be suitable for trees in pots.

On another note my husband has a mandarin orange tree that we have grown in a pot for 5 years now - anyone know how long a citrus tree takes to produce fruit?? Its a beautiful plant even if it never flowers, we keep it outdoors in the summer but bring it inside from October-April as we live in Canada (zone 5!) One of my favourite houseplants in the winter!!

canadamike and bertiefox - I am definitely going to start some espaliered apple trees. I have a perfect spot for them alongside the house. I just love the whole idea of espalier! I might try some pears too. We have a full sized pear tree already that bears heavy crops every year but I'd like to try some different varieties too.

I am off to go read more about bonsai now!! Or maybe I'll go and pot up some apple rootstock . . .

Citrus trees really vary in pots. Generally the better you treat them (lots of minerals, mycorrhizae and organic fertilizer) the faster they fruit. I bought a Yuzu in a 5 gallon pot and got it to fruit in 3 years, which most citrus growers will tell you is impossible to do. Yuzu is notorious for taking very long periods of time to bear fruit. But if you look after the nutritional needs of your trees, most will respond.

[steev]

Whenever I strain my back, I have to walk bent at a 45 degree angle; it certainly makes me feel older, although even less fruitful.

[coppice]

My bonsai live in soil built out of mostly crushed (and sifted) granite, with most of the remainder crushed bark mulch. The amount of finished compost is negledgible (but does exist).

Not counting texas Ebony (a shrub), or azaleas, the average size of the trees I grow, were they unpruned would be in the twenty five+ foot tall range. None will get more than about 30 inches tall while in my pots.

IMO this is too tiny of a tree for table apple production. That is not true for crab apple or beach plum.

If speed is your need, grafting onto one of the smaller Malling rootstocks will bring fruit to your table faster--in trees grown in pots.

When I grew just a couple trees in pots 50LB bags of granite grit (granni-grit) and bark mulch worked fine. When my hobby got bigger finding a gravel mill (for their granite dust) and a saw-mill for bark mulch became manditory.

Trees do take up some fertilizer from soluble sources, but get at least as much from mycorriza working bark mulch. Weekly dilute compost or manure teas, or soluble chemical ferts gets applied spring summer and fall. A tree in a pot may survive withholding water or fertilizer, bit they won't thrive.

Hearty trees of mine get bermed into garden beds and mulched, or go to cold frame to reduce snow pack damage.