Doomsday Challenge

[steev]

Not only your opinion, however; I share it, mostly.

[johno]

Incredible feedback, folks! There is so much to comment on here, I don't know where to start.

Since I'm part of the beans and ammo subculture, let me say a word or two on that. Here's the scenario: 2 or 3 days after the grocery stores stop getting supplies, city folks will have little choice but to leave in search of food. Anyone within a full gas tank's radius of the city will be at risk from looters. The sad fact is, there's only so much to share, and when you stop sharing, the starving city folks will have no choice but to attempt stealing your food; hence the need for guns and ammo. Hopefully that would be a short term problem. Long term, it's a lot easier to shoot a deer or turkey than it is to spear one. I think of it as life insurance.

That said, community is of paramount importance as well, for long term survival. As has already been said, man is best suited for survival in small groups.

A milk cow is a great thing to have, as long as you have access to a bull. Otherwise, the milk eventually dries up. As far as breeds go, look into beefalo for their good grazing abilities and low veterinary requirements. Also, I'm on board with hybrid vigor, especially Jersey crosses. I suggest looking into non-electric fencing options ahead of time. Rip-gut fences are good for large livestock, and living fences can be planted in the meanwhile. Neither require steel fencing, which, in my experience, is a constant battle.

Water really is key to survival. Even here, where we have a box spring closer to the garden than the house is (but, annoyingly, downhill...), and our wells are shallow for the area (less than 200'), and we have a creek in the backyard... water is a big problem during the height of summer if there's no electricity. The spring and creeks dry up, and the well is close to 200' deep. There's always rainwater - if you collect and store it before the height of summer. The water problem boils down to sufficient storage.

By the way, we wouldn't turn down anyone for water as long as it's flowing...

Anyway, bushels of food for thought. Some things we ought to do down here in the valley: smokehouse, water tight rail car for rain water storage/ build a distillation system, spring house (already underway), large root cellar (spring house will store food with specific storage requirements of humid and cool), outdoor ovens, build a forge/ area for metal working, and so on.

[zachary]

Nov 11, 2011 9:48:45 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

Yep, cultural. Guns are part of rural life here in the US at least. I own a few. They can be handy for nuisance predator control (dog, racoon, possum, coyotes (if you are incredibly lucky)). They are also useful for nusiance pest control (deer, rabbit, crow, turkey, Canada Goose).

I have my personal doubts about how useful they would be in a SHTF situation. In my opinion the best thing in that situation is having a good strong friendship with your neighbors and becoming an asset for them by helping them survive the initial chaos with food, seed, and community. If things really do fall apart, we'll all need old fashioned communities that come together for house raisings, barn raisings, births, deaths, corn shuckings, quilting bees, etc.

The idea that you can stock your bunker with beans and ammo and ride it out is a common and popular idea among a certain subculture here in the US. I believe that it is a fallacy that fails to account for basic human nature the same way that extreme socialism is a fallacy.

Guns are indeed a major factor in US culture, and nightmares don't get much worse than having a collection of heavily armed fanatics and/or pinheads coming after you. (Niven and Pournelle in their novel Lucifer's Hammer used this theme)

Years ago I heard a fairly close relative say he didn't need any kind of food stocks because he planned to use his armory to 'liberate' such stuff from people who had it. Mind you, this fellow had enough heavy weapons to equip a squad of infantry! I believe he was assuming that law enforcement had completely broken down and he'd have a free hand as the biggest fish in the pond. In that regard I believe he was and would be wrong. Police forces would get any available gasoline. Their powers would be drastically expanded - legally or not. Recall how the goons with uniforms and badges were threatening and even killing refugees in New Orleans?

After 9/11 there was a "no fly" prohibition enforced on the entire nation. No reason at all a "no drive" proclamation wouldn't happen if some president or governor decided it needed doing.

Roadblocks would be everywhere, and only authorized vehicles would be allowed on the highways. Lawmen and deputized local civilians would enforce the edict.

In fact, I suspect the danger to rural areas would come from the Authorities instead of from roving mobs of hungry people.

I'd expect food stocks to be 'nationalized' - a polite way of saying they're going to take your supplies to feed those folks in town.

In my state - Indiana - a recent State Supreme Court ruling declared that any law official can come onto your property, and into your house, for any reason whatever. And for NO REASON whatever. Without any of that "warrant" stuff! Imagine how much worse it would be in an actual emergency. The Authorities (or the local strongman who'd assumed that power) would quickly know the food stocks and weapons situation of everybody in the area.

Provident people with a small food bank would be demonized as "hoarders". I'd imagine this line would play out very well. (side note - after the Russian Revolution the Reds completely stripped large areas of southwest Russia of all food and left the natives to starve. And starve they did. I believe Herbert Hoover's role in the US relief operations there led to his becoming president.)

People who believe their trusty rifle & pistol collection will save them are - IMO - delusional. No way under heaven could an isolated home or group of homes resist a visit by a couple dozen state police and their deputized assistants. This would be a vastly more powerful force than twice the number of starving refugees.

I suppose my point is that surviving really hard times wouldn't be quite as simple as is generally assumed.

[steev]

Well said, zachary. There are letters and photos of kin on Mom's side who were provident around southern Ukraine and Odessa until they were nationalized to starve or be shipped to Siberia, so that's no idle boogeyman scenario to me.

As for the guns and bunkers, my farm is flat as piss on a plate, with open line-of-sight at least a mile in ~300 degrees, so I'd be pretty easy game unless I were locked down full-time, which would curtail any foraging/gardening. I figure my best bet is to be as self-sufficient, community-integrated, and useful as possible. I'm not as tough as I hope I am perceived, more a gopher snake than a rattler. Pop was a decorated Marine master sargeant who made it clear that tough ain't enough.

We must work to prevent SHTF at least as much as to survive it if we fail. Try to stay flexible, in case one needs to kiss one's ass "Goodbye".

[12540dumont]

In 1989 Leo and I moved to the farm. It was one week before the Loma Prieta earthquake. That was a 6.9 and pretty much it made a mess all over the bay area.

We learned a couple of things that day.
1. Take charge. Where I worked, all the bosses had gone home for the day. So I went building to building telling people to get out and go home.

Leo, was still in the Santa Cruz Mountains working and he went and checked on all the neighbors before leaving the mountain, helped the neighbors put out a fire, and cleared a slide to be able to get out.

2. Nothing is going to work. We had no power, no phone and no water for 3 days. What we did have was a small well stocked travel trailer. Our house wasn't built yet and everything we owned was in boxes. So, I had a snug place to sleep and food and water.

3. Transportation was a disaster. The trains didn't run. The elevated freeways were collapsed. It took me 2 hours to do a 30 minute commute. I was anxious to get to the farm. Every surface street was jam packed with cars. Getting OUT of the Bay Area was not possible. I know every back way to get to the farm and used a combination of many to get here.

4. Have a meeting place. All the rest of the family converged at my brother-in-laws house at the base of the mountain, so that we knew every one was safe.

5. Have a plan. We once talked about what to do in a disaster. We decided that wherever we were, we'd go to the farm, no matter how many days it took to get there. Upon arrival, stay put. Leo didn't make it back till the next day. I was really glad to see him!

One day at the high school, there was a hostage situation. While people stood around crying, my son packed up his stuff and walked to the farm (3 miles). Although police, fire and swat were all there, it was a mad house. I call this failure to appoint someone in charge.

Leo and I have taken all the disaster training. In a real emergency I'm in charge of freeing animals and Leo does search and rescue.

Look at those poor folks in Fukushima, I bet none of them woke up and said, let's get into our bunker and eat our beans. They faced earthquake, tsunami, followed by nuclear meltdown. Thousands of them still have no homes, and no place to go. All we've got is each other folks.

And Steev, when you can't get out of Oakland...you can always come here.

[davida]

Holly,
You have such a clear and concise style of writing. Very well spoken, very helpful and I agree. I especially liked where your son walked home from school. One possibility of the next terrorist attack is for several small schools and public places to be bombed at the same time to paralize the nation. And as your post outlines, without a plan, most people would be paralized. My only school age grandchild is home schooled but when any are in public school, I will fix up the old dirt bike and have wire cutters handy to bypass the traffic jam and get them to the farm. Thanks for the good information.

[steev]

When I can't get out of Oakland, it will be a cold day in hell. I once walked 55 miles in 13 hours; I'd have done it in 11, but there were slowpokes to urge on who weren't used to riding shank's mare. I think my travel-stride is only a bit over 4mph now, for extended effort. In the event of meltdown, I think I can get to the farm in 2-3 days, sleeping rough, fueled on snack bars and ill-temper. I keep a copious supply of both close at hand. Thanks for the invite, but that direction would go through far more fatheads than would be good for my cholesterol levels.

[spacecase0]

I am in el cerrito, that is not a far walk from oakland...
I have a stream 2 blocks away and things to purify the water at 2 gallons a min.
use to have lots of stored food but likely only have 80 pounds of grains there
but it sure would get some people through a short event like a quake.
you will likely be able to contact me on the radio at 146.415 MHz
but that is the emergency net for my area, so someone there will be able to help you even if I can't
having a ham radio in events like that will be a big help,
if noting else but to here how organized the road blocks will be

I am wondering if the retrofits to the freeways will keep them standing after the next quake ?
I guess I will find out at some point
seems to me like 580 is the best evacuation route out of the area,
it does not have any bridges and no refineries right off the road like 4 does,
maybe 152 would work, but getting down 101 to it will likely not work...

I already have emergency seeds in the trunk of my car, but I guess they are not going to help me much,
I just hope I am at home when the quake hits

[davida]

Oklahoma is having earthquakes! Several in the last 10 days. Biggest 5.6. We have always had torandos but at least with them you have weather mapping for a warning. When the house shook last Saturday night without warning and not know how big the earthquake was going to be, I can now feel your pain.

[steev]

I thought earthquakes were none too usual in Oklahoma! Well, the occasional terremoto is good for the ticker; blows the plaque out of the arteries.

[zachary]

Nov 11, 2011 17:25:06 GMT -5 spacecase0 said:

I already have emergency seeds in the trunk of my car, but I guess they are not going to help me much,
I just hope I am at home when the quake hits

I see no reason why people who plan to leave their immediate area shouldn't have a supply of seeds on their person. Sure it couldn't be many, but I'd wager that with some thought a small sealed package would give them quite a head start at 'wherever they're going'. A google search of "bug out bags" and "seeds" produces very few results. Nobody is doing this!

Tomato seeds are very light and small. My preferred method of saving a small batch is to spread the final clean-but-still-wet mass onto a cheap paper plate. They stick like glue, and small patches can be cut out to mail to relatives, or flaked off for this year's planting. A small credit-card piece could be stuck in the bottom of an Altoids tin! That would be my starting box for a personal seed stash. Next would be a tiny packet of tobacco seeds. Lots and lots of uses for them, but in particular for fumigation purposes. Homemade plant sprays are another. The seeds are dust-like, and you wouldn't need many.

Potato seeds are next. Commercial sorts are available, but I grow my own. The little seed pods aren't as uncommon as generally supposed. In the past I've planted good-looking tubers from the grocery store, and in some cases the plants were simply covered with the little green berries. I treat them like tomatoes - mash them, ferment them a bit, then dry them out. (Wait until the berries change color and start having a sweet & fruity smell.) Naturally there is a lot of variation in the plants you get when you plant your seed, but IMO something is better than nothing. And in any event, you can select for the good plants for regular vegetative propagation in the future. Once again, the seed are very small.

At least 100 corn seed of my favorite variety. Much smaller samples of the beans, perhaps as few as 5 seeds of each variety.

This may sound quirky, but I'd include some upland rice - the sort which doesn't require flooding. I've grown the stuff precisely once, and a whole square foot at that! Still, the productivity of those tiny plants astounded me. I harvested over half a cup of grain from my "plot".

Carrots and kale and spinach and onions. More tiny seeds.

Herbs a person likes.

Finally, after my 'stuff' was packed, I'd fill the voids by pouring in something else. Probably turnips. Quick root crop and highly edible green tops.

Tape the seam between top and bottom. Waterproof again with a ziplock. Maybe again with one of those heated seam plastic sealers.

Voila!

[davida]

Steev, We were shocked to find out that Oklahoma usually has like 50 earthquakes a year but in my 58 years, these are the first ones that we have ever felt. Since quakes are measured on a logarithmic scale, your 6.9 was like 15 times stronger than our 5.6. We will stick with our tornados, ice storms and high winds. You can keep the quakes. But with our extreme weather this year and the quakes, just another reason to prepare for Johno's Doomsday Challenge.

Enjoy your humor!

[zachary]

In an earlier post I speculated about using popcorn flour in recipes. Well, as luck would have it, yesterday at the library I checked out "The Cornbread Book" by Jeremy Jackson. On page 16 he tells how a Chicago bread company used 25% popcorn flour along with 75% wheat flour at the end of WW2. On page 90 Mr. Jackson created a recipe for the bread, and literally raves about the result.

As it happens, yesterday I'd also made a stop at an antique store and bought a rusty meat grinder for a whole 8 bucks. A trip through the dishwasher, then a dip in a very mild acid bath did wonders for the looks, and after sharpening the cutter blade and plate it was ready to go. So I made a bowl of popcorn in the hot-air popper, and put it through the meat grinder. The work was easy - I believe a child could do it. The result was a dish of soft coarse flour. I'm going to try this not in wheat bread, but mix it with standard cornmeal to make some corn bread. I know that 100% popcorn meal makes good cornbread because I did it once, but the work was unbelievable.

By the way, since this is a "doomsday" thread, anybody who thinks they might face such a challenge really ought to have a good meat grinder. Beware of the new Chinese models - some are good and some aren't. You won't really know until you try using it. If you're buying an old one make sure all the parts are there.

The plates come in all sizes. For everyday non-doomsday uses, I'd suggest one with the largest holes which approach a nickel coin in size. For making chili you'll have some decent chunks of meat instead of the sawdust which can result from using store-bought hamburger. (my plate for the popcorn was one of the smaller sizes - about 4 mm)

Remember, in the hypothetical collapse of civilization, the dentist may not be too easy to visit. Or not too affordable. Or not even available at all. So instead of repairing bad teeth they'll get pulled. Without teeth meat eating is not a happy thing unless it has been ground fine.

Finally, these little grinders can be adopted to some other surprising uses. One year I'd picked several 5-gallon buckets full of strawberries, and needed to make them all into freezer jam. My solution was to pull out of storage a grinder with medium-sized plates and turn those little suckers into slurry -- and in a hurry. (94 pints, if my memory is right)

Now I'm wondering if I couldn't boil some corn kernels and then grind the softened grains down to the point I could us them for cornbread. One of these days I'm going to try it.

[steev]

I think I'm going to put together a pvc seed vault with a screw-cap on one end, so it can be sealed well with thread-goo, but openable without a saw. It won't have to be too big in diameter, longer will work for packets of seed like ziplock snak-paks. Once it's loaded, I can bury it on the North side of the pumphouse, about a foot down; should be very stable, cool storage. Every few years, I can switch out the seed for use, replacing it with fresh. Think I'll be sure to put in plenty of seed for stuff that sprouts up fast, so I can get some vitamins while I wait for crops to mature: mustards, Brassicas, radishes, and such. I don't suppose I'll need it in case of natural disaster, as I've got lots of perennials growing, but if they aren't in production and somebody cleans out my fields, I'll have the wherewithal to re-plant, whatever the season, and muddle along.

[spacecase0]

my emergency seeds have all kinds of things in them including grains, especially sorghum,
I would like rice seeds in it, but keep getting crop failures, so I don't have many rice seeds extra now
I use canning jars that are vacuum packed,
i have a pint of my flower corn I grow,
and a pint of small packets of other seeds,
I have made quite a few of these up now and have been giving them to friends as well
I likely need to move to quart jars to fit more seeds and make a good list of what I have in there for myself

I like the PVC idea and use the earth for the temperature stability,
I would use 4 inch PVC and put the jars in, that way I can still vacuum pack them and have a leak proof and solid outside.. but for now the backup seeds live in the car

I suppose I should have lots (like at least 1/4 pound) of things like spinach seeds and other quick growing in my backup set