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Post by zachary on Nov 13, 2011 1:39:56 GMT -5
my emergency seeds have all kinds of things in them including grains, especially sorghum spacecase0, I've considered the PVC vault mentioned by steev, but for now I don't know enough to try it. In spite of my past efforts at storing seeds, I'm still not sure which ones tolerate storing in a tightly sealed jar, let alone a vacuum. I purchased my vacuum pump several years ago when I was trying to figure out a way of storing strike-anywhere wooden matches. Didn't help a bit! (in fact, the only way I know to make them last is to freeze them!) The corn seed I spoke of with my first posts on this forum sure didn't like glass-jar storage! Back in the seventies I bought a five pound sack of Burpee's green vegetable soybeans strictly for storage. Not that I'd ever planted soybeans, or even tasted them - it just seemed like a good idea at the time as a method to provide lots of protein. They sat in their jar for several years, and a germination test turned up zero viability, so I broadcast them on a section of garden I was going to return to lawn. Sometime next spring I noticed a couple of soybean plants amid the new grass. Concluding these must be some pretty tough customers, I avoided mowing them and collected & dried the seed, then put them back in a much smaller jar. About a dozen years later I made another germination test, and just about every one of those little suckers sprouted. Conclusion: I'd inadvertently selected for seed which thrived with the treatment I was providing. In about 1998 I made a small planting, and those are presently marking time in their jar for the next try. Using that as a model, I've got a pound of onion seeds all sealed up waiting their turn. I don't have a clue if I'll get a few super-long-lived types, but I'm sure going to try! I've only found one brief piece about the record-holding seed varieties. It's an Organic Gardening article titled "Seeds You Can Save For a Century!" Here is a summary of the results where the number at the end is the estimated number of years at which the germination rate of fresh seeds would have declined to 50%. Bean Dwarf Green Pod 90 Beet Early Flat Egyptian 66 Carrot New Early Coreless 68 Corn Earligold 86 Cucumber National Pickling 53 Eggplant Minnoval 119 Muskmelon Early Sunrise 79 Okra Wyoming No. 4 258 Onion San Joaquin 38 Pea Pedigree Extra Early 232 Pepper (bell) Thomsen's Own Sweet 37 Spinach Blight Resistant 43 Savoy Swiss Chard Burpee's Rhubarb 68 Tomato Marmon 230 Watermelon Will's Sugar 48 I've been mighty tempted to try to get that onion (in particular) from the National Seed Storage lab, but those fellows are engaged in mighty serious work, and it hasn't seemed quite right for a rank amateur like myself to bother them. It would be really nice though if a single dedicated person already known to them got a sample, propagated it, then shared with their buddies here. (hint, hint) But getting back to the seed vault, I'd really like to stock it with some long-lived varieties which I can leave in the ground undisturbed. Let the kids and grand-kids learn about it by word of mouth. PS: I forgot to mention sorghum, so thanks for bringing it up. It very well might escape a biowar-against-crops campaign by some future evildoer. I will say I've had some trouble storing my sorghum seeds. A variety I really liked I got from Gurney's while they were still a real seed company. It was a popping sorghum, and it made some pea-sized popped kernels which I liked even better than the standard maize popcorn. So I saved a pound of seed, but only a couple years later not a speck of it would germinate! Like I said earlier, I don't quite know what I'm doing with my seed stocks, but I figure a person is better off with a pound of cabbage seed than with a packet. If my germination drops to 1/2%, I'll still have something to eat. |
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Post by oxbowfarm on Nov 13, 2011 6:31:08 GMT -5
I've had some thoughts on survival foods, ie foods you might be able to grow that the jack booted thugs wouldn't take, mostly because they wouldn't know they were food. Most of these are perenial things I'm trying to get going that can take care of themselves and form a "strategic reserve" for desperate times. Here's the list I've got so far.
Hybrid Cattail (Typha x Glauca) I went up to the Catherine Creek Marsh and got a bunch of rhizomes of this as the native hybrid is supposed to be a lot more vigorous
Jerusalem Artichoke Several different clones growing. Hoping to get a big semi-permanent patch going. I honestly don't love them to eat but they're better than starving to death.
American Lotus (Nelumbo lutea) I want to start this in my pond but have had no success. I've scarrified the seeds and tossed them in, I've started the plants in 2 liter bottles and tried to transplant them, nothing. I've been searching for a patch of them locally to get a viable rhizome to plant but no luck so far. If anybody knows of a patch of american lotus anywhere in the twin tiers of NY/PA please give me the heads up.
Shagbark Hickory (Carya ovata)
White Oak (Quercus alba)
Mulberry
Honey Locust
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Post by spacecase0 on Nov 13, 2011 21:11:12 GMT -5
sorghum seeds absorb moisture easy and loose viability in a few years if they have moisture around them store them in a moisture proof container and they will last much longer onion seeds seem to mostly loose viability because of the processing if you don't threshing the onion seeds and just store entire seed heads they will last much longer as far as a storing things in a vacuum, most seeds seem to do very well that way, I also keep them in a freezer if I can, here is info on storing seeds for the long term www.seedcontainers.net/a_guide_to_long-term_seed_preservation.html |
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Post by zachary on Nov 14, 2011 0:04:00 GMT -5
At least I've been doing a few things right with the silica gel and mason jars sealed with metal rings and new canning lids. Now I've got to give some thought to replacing the oxygen in those jars with something else. Or soaking it up with some sort of absorber. I wonder if those little oxygen-absorbing packets I've seen added to dry food would work with seeds? Gotta read up on it. www.oxygenabsorber.net/Oxygen%20Absorbers%20Introduction.pdf |
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Post by spacecase0 on Nov 14, 2011 1:14:11 GMT -5
they just absorb oxygen, not sure they care what is around them...
it should be just fine,
I chose to take all the air out because it is easier for me to do
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Post by johno on Nov 14, 2011 10:02:36 GMT -5
There is a tradition in third world countries of using wood ashes to fill the space around the seeds - granted, this works best for larger seeds because it can be a bit of work to filter the small ones back out. I doubt this gets all the oxygen out, as opposed to replacing the air with pure nitrogen or whatever, but it does have the properties of working like DE against insects. Also, ashes are easier to come by and cheaper.
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Post by steev on Nov 14, 2011 10:15:24 GMT -5
And ashes are fertilizer, so small seeds don't necessarily need to be separated before thinly sowing, so ash-seed storage can be a twofer.
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Post by zachary on Nov 14, 2011 10:36:09 GMT -5
Shagbark Hickory (Carya ovata) White Oak (Quercus alba) Mulberry Honey Locust That's why I've acquired a couple of books by Euell Gibbons. Several years ago I read about the honey locust, and decided to take a crack at growing myself a tree. I ordered some seed from Mellingers and was astonished at the germination instructions. A person was supposed to put the seeds in a teacup, then pour boiling water over them! To make a long story short, it worked. I put out a dozen seeds in a clump, and selected the best looking seedling. It was my good fortune the one I chose was thornless - they'd mentioned a few could revert to the thorny variety. That tree is now a beauty, and is approaching saw-log size. Beside it is a grafted honey locust I purchased from Fred Ashworth. It's one he'd selected for sweet & good tasting pods. As far as using either one of them for my personal food supply, IMO that's out of the question. The Ashworth variety does have a nice flavor, but there isn't enough 'stuff' there to bother with. Maybe if I had some livestock they'd eat the huge pods, but those seeds are so hard they could be used as buckshot! Trying to grind them is an exercise in futility. But on the plus side, they're quite nice looking yard trees.  |
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Post by mnjrutherford on Nov 14, 2011 12:53:48 GMT -5
Awesome challenge here Johno! I don't have time right now to read through the entire thread but I will be looking forward to doing so soon. In fact, I think we will be making this a family project. Even so, I just wanted to jot down a couple of my thoughts even if I may be repeating something.
Cooks - Train a child, your child, a friend or neighbor's child, every child you can lay your hands on. Teach them at how to take at least 2 or 3 things from "seed" to table. My oldest is now training with me as a baker. He's also "working" at the shop I'm working at. The owner has asked him to make a presentation about baking bread to a class of 14 that will be visiting in a few weeks time.
Wild Pantry - Joseph has spoken on this and we are working on implementing his system. Naturalize as much of your food as possible. In the forest, in the ditches, along the roads... If there is dirt, put an edible seed of some sort into it. Then make sure your kids know how to harvest/cook/eat it.
Kids - Focus on the kids. They will be the ones that need all the help they can get. Anyone who says to a kid, "Never mind, I can do it easier myself." aught to be struck with instant leprosy of the tongue. I can not think of anything more stupid than failing to teach your children how to live.
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Post by spacecase0 on Nov 14, 2011 13:49:55 GMT -5
There is a tradition in third world countries of using wood ashes to fill the space around the seeds - granted, this works best for larger seeds because it can be a bit of work to filter the small ones back out. I doubt this gets all the oxygen out, as opposed to replacing the air with pure nitrogen or whatever, but it does have the properties of working like DE against insects. Also, ashes are easier to come by and cheaper. that is a great trick, I am excited to know about that one. |
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Post by zachary on Nov 14, 2011 14:13:26 GMT -5
There is a tradition in third world countries of using wood ashes to fill the space around the seeds - granted, this works best for larger seeds because it can be a bit of work to filter the small ones back out. I doubt this gets all the oxygen out, as opposed to replacing the air with pure nitrogen or whatever, but it does have the properties of working like DE against insects. Also, ashes are easier to come by and cheaper. In an earlier post you spoke of favoring beans as a 'doomsday' food source. In my area I've never had a problem with bean weevils, but it's a major problem in places. Storing large seeds in wood ashes seems like a good idea, but getting enough ashes for the harvested crop would be quite a problem for me. I've been filing some old articles I've saved, and the other day I saw the one saying beans could be protected by simply shaking them once a day for a while. Seems the weevil larva need to chew their way through the bean seed coat to get to the inside to feed. This is very hard work for the tiny creature and it has to brace itself against a hard surface to get the necessary leverage. Giving the container a vigorous shaking (or in the case of a 3/4 full drywall bucket a few rolls) dislodges the critters and they have to start again on a new bean. After a while almost all of them will be crushed or starve to death. One thing about stored beans is how they get 'tough' - totally impossible to cook to tenderness in a normal kettle. So a tool bean eaters must add to their kitchen supplies is a small pressure cooker. For the 'doomsday' thing, lay back some extra parts - especially spare rubber rings. I'd store them in a freezer ziplock bag to keep out atmospheric materials which would rot the rubber prematurely. I presoak my beans for a good while, and from there pressure cooking anywhere from 10 to 30 minutes will bring them to perfect eating condition. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 14, 2011 15:26:33 GMT -5
One thing about stored beans is how they get 'tough' - totally impossible to cook to tenderness in a normal kettle. So a tool bean eaters must add to their kitchen supplies is a small pressure cooker. For the 'doomsday' thing, lay back some extra parts - especially spare rubber rings. I'd store them in a freezer ziplock bag to keep out atmospheric materials which would rot the rubber prematurely. Or better yet, get a pressure cooker with a metal-to-metal seal. That way there are no rubber gaskets to wear out, or get brittle, or misplace, or damage. |
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Post by zachary on Nov 14, 2011 16:00:10 GMT -5
Or better yet, get a pressure cooker with a metal-to-metal seal. That way there are no rubber gaskets to wear out, or get brittle, or misplace, or damage. But not anymore. In theory the metal/metal seals are a great idea. Years ago I made very sure my new pressure canner was of that sort - even paid quite a premium for the feature. These days I'm sticking strictly with the replaceable gasket models. The change of mind came when I acquired a very nice looking metal/metal canner at a garage sale. First time I tried it out, the thing wouldn't build pressure - it was leaking at the seal. Inspection showed that seal to have been eroded - probably by vaporized tomato juice. What was so heartbreaking was that no fix was possible - I had to discard the whole shebang. At that point I realized the same problem could have arisen if something got dropped on the bottom kettle part of the machined surface, or if the lid got hit on that smooth seal surface. So my backup canners are all rubber sealed. (with backup rubbers!) Oh, I'm certainly keeping the almost new metal/metal model, but it's going to be in deep reserve. I've never seen a small saucepan-sized pressure cooker with anything besides the rubber gasket. The one I have in daily use is a neat little 3-qt antique. The inside bottom is covered with pits from cooking acid foods, but that's ok. I never pressure cook such foods, and anyhow, it's the only aluminum kettle I own. |
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Post by 12540dumont on Nov 14, 2011 16:49:05 GMT -5
Unscented cat litter is the same clay used in those little keep dry packs they sell for seeds. The silicon ones have been linked to cancer, so I've given them up.
I recycle old seed packets into cat litter holders, tape them shut and put one in each canning jar.
I haven't had a problem with seed viability. Of course when the electric goes, I'll have to bury the fridge.
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Post by steev on Nov 14, 2011 18:59:52 GMT -5
Actually, that might be a good idea, to bury the fridge. An old fridge on its back or a chest freezer buried with the door on top, covered with insulation, might be pretty secure, cool storage. It might also be secure from probable finger blight.
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