|
|
Post by templeton on Apr 29, 2012 16:57:12 GMT -5
Thanks for that Jim, I had a bit of a poke around my bean flowers this summer, but like Raymondo, just butchered them. I'm tempted to go out and see if there are any flowers left on my plants - we've had a great late season for beans here, and the plants are still doing well.
T
|
|
jim
grub
Posts: 75
|
Post by jim on Apr 29, 2012 20:40:52 GMT -5
Thanks Everyone...glad it helped out!
It takes a "gentle" touch! The worst is when you place the stigma on the flower, and let go to grab a tag and the flower falls off!
Happy crossing!
Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by raymondo on Apr 30, 2012 3:27:10 GMT -5
How does one know to which gene pool a cultivar belongs?
|
|
jim
grub
Posts: 75
|
Post by jim on Apr 30, 2012 11:38:29 GMT -5
That is a good question Raymondo...they are separated based on seed size, growth habit, and other morphological characteristics...but there is no place to look and see if "variety X" is Meso-American or Andean.
Generally speaking, beans from Mexico and Central America are Meso...black, navy, great northern, small reds, pinks, pinto, carioca, oja de cabra...Indenterminate growth habit, mid sized to small seeds, almost all less than 40 g per 100 seeds.
Those from Chile/Peru etc-Andean, and this includes the vast majority of varieties from Africa, Europe, and the "heirlooms" from Eastern North America--Cranberry, Azufrado, Mayacoba, Kidney, marrow fat, greasy, yellow eye, nuna,...Most are determinate (Nunas are not), and have large seeds.
There has been some introgression between both gene pools, especially in Europe.
There is very little variability in the Andean gene pool, but the Meso gene pool is quite diverse.
Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by raymondo on Apr 30, 2012 16:12:31 GMT -5
Thanks Jim. I suppose that the growth habit is a 'mostly' thing - mostly indeterminate or mostly determinate. Would that be the case? I suggest this because I grow Hopi Black which has small, black seeds but has determinate habit. I read up a bit on the crosses between these groups. It seems grafting the F1 onto meso root stock allows the plant to get to maturity. There wasn't any further information that I could find so I don't know what happens with the F2 but I'm assuming that with recombination a number of F2 plants would grow without a problem.
|
|
|
|
Post by templeton on Apr 30, 2012 16:30:32 GMT -5
Jim,
presumably with this method some selfing takes place, and you need to seperate out the crosses at the F1?
And following up Raymondo's question, are most 'green' (=fresh pod eating) beans in the same gene pool? would a cross between say a Kentucky Wonder pole bean and a yellow bush bean be possible? Or a Purple King with a Blue Lake? Or is this a case by case thing?
T
|
|
jim
grub
Posts: 75
|
Post by jim on Apr 30, 2012 20:56:19 GMT -5
There are determinate mesos....and I would expect hopi black to be meso.
Snap beans are generally Andean
And, selfs are possible, but usually easy to notice....If your technique is good, you shouldn't have very many selfs, actually. Depends on getting a bud at the right time, once the pollen growth starts from the cross you did, the pollen released the following day will be a day behind.
Grafting has been done to rescue the F1, and F2....I think the success rate would be limited....Ive used my own method which is inspired by those who have rooted the cuttings....When the seed first germinates, and the transition between the hypocotyl and root is clear, I cut off the root....this is very early after germination, basically talking about the radical. Adventitious roots grow from the shoot tissue and you avoid the root/shoot incompatibility.
The lethal dwarf phenotype will continue to segregate in your population, but you should have enough plants from F2 that are healthy.
Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by raymondo on May 1, 2012 5:23:50 GMT -5
There are determinate mesos....and I would expect hopi black to be meso. Snap beans are generally Andean Thank you. And, selfs are possible, but usually easy to notice....If your technique is good, you shouldn't have very many selfs, actually. Depends on getting a bud at the right time, once the pollen growth starts from the cross you did, the pollen released the following day will be a day behind. Yes, operative words 'If your technique is good'. I'm a bit heavy handed. I've managed tomatoes and peas without too much fuss, but common beans...frustrating. Hopefully, with your excellent 'walk through' I will have some success. Grafting has been done to rescue the F1, and F2....I think the success rate would be limited....Ive used my own method which is inspired by those who have rooted the cuttings....When the seed first germinates, and the transition between the hypocotyl and root is clear, I cut off the root....this is very early after germination, basically talking about the radical. Adventitious roots grow from the shoot tissue and you avoid the root/shoot incompatibility. The lethal dwarf phenotype will continue to segregate in your population, but you should have enough plants from F2 that are healthy. Jim That sounds much easier than grafting, thank you. I've done that sort of thing with both brassica and tomato seedlings from crosses that damped off at a very early stage. There are no shortage of bean seeds on which to practice. Can't tell you how much I appreciate this Jim. I was quite dismayed by my first attempts at crossing. Now, I'm looking forward to early summer - that's December for me! |
|
jim
grub
Posts: 75
|
Post by jim on May 1, 2012 13:13:14 GMT -5
I hope it all goes well Raymondo!
Jim
|
|
Hawk
gopher
Posts: 22
|
Post by Hawk on May 3, 2012 4:15:24 GMT -5
Very nice... I especially liked the recommendation that removing stamens is optional. Wow! Great thread this has become! I am going to start planting my beans this weekend!  |
|
Hawk
gopher
Posts: 22
|
Post by Hawk on May 3, 2012 4:16:50 GMT -5
I have enjoyed everyone's posts so far!
|
|
Hawk
gopher
Posts: 22
|
Post by Hawk on May 3, 2012 4:20:24 GMT -5
Hey Holly! We would get along just great... The "M" word and GMO's give me the creeps... It is funny that you mentioned pole beans because that is what I had in mind. My Papaw (Grandfather) has always told me to stick with pole beans. His favorite pole bean was a white greasy cutshort bean that may not exist anymore. I am on a quest to find this bean if it still is around. My grandparents said it had the best flavor and yield of any bean they have grown. They said that this bean had white seeds. Their second favorite bean that they still grow is Kentucky Wonder. I have always been a serious gardener. Breeding plants is of high interest to me. I enjoy watching things grow and paying attention to the details. No laboratories in my backyard! This website has several white greasy cutshort beans listed: heirlooms.org/catalog.htmlHope one of these is the one that you are searching. David Thank you David! Nice! |
|
jim
grub
Posts: 75
|
Post by jim on May 3, 2012 17:45:45 GMT -5
In the US...there are NO "genetically engineered" Phaseolus vulgaris L.
If you discount the 10,000 years of human selection and breeding.
In Brazil, GE pintos have been released which are resistant to Bean Golden Mosaic Virus...something there is no natural resistance in either the primary or secondary germplasm pool.
Jim
|
|
|
|
Post by davida on May 3, 2012 21:34:40 GMT -5
In the US...there are NO "genetically engineered" Phaseolus vulgaris L. And I certainly hope we can keep it that way. It makes it so much easier to try different varieties. David |
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 3, 2012 22:27:20 GMT -5
In the US...there are NO "genetically engineered" Phaseolus vulgaris L. If you discount the 10,000 years of human selection and breeding. In Brazil, GE pintos have been released which are resistant to Bean Golden Mosaic Virus...something there is no natural resistance in either the primary or secondary germplasm pool. Jim No GMO P. vulgaris except for the pinto beans that were imported from Brazil for adding to 15 bean soup, and the end user didn't eat the bag of beans but planted it... And except for the imported GMO pintos that have fallen out of the processing system and are growing feral... And except for the GMO pintos that were sent from farm-workers in Brazil to their friends and family in the usa... And except for the GMO pintos that were sold on eBay by enterprising growers in Brazil. Bean Golden Yellow Mosaic Virus has identified/named three resistance genes, and a line with horizontal resistance. The review article's conclusion is that: "Most of the seed classes of beans produced in the tropics have at least one BGYMV resistant line or cultivar" |
|
