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Post by templeton on Apr 16, 2012 4:41:51 GMT -5
I've just posted a new brief set of resources on snap pea breeding on my blog templetonsmedelania.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/sugar-snap-breeding-lecture.html, including a powerpoint presentation by Jim Myers I found on YouTube with some great data on the NOVIC breeding trials. I've also put up links to a couple of other vids, and a couple of research papers that I found useful. If anyone wants the hard to get review, I may be able to point you in the right direction. (Yes, shameless self promotion, but I'm getting sick of only getting hits from Bulgarian spammers) For those wanting to go straight to the presentation, here <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YDtNWUcn8I> Looking foward to some discussion of stringlessness, and strategies for capturing the phenotype. T |
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Post by raymondo on Apr 16, 2012 8:19:04 GMT -5
Just had a look T. Sorry to tell you that the Sugar Ann I've grown is not stringless. I got my seed from Green Harvest. Where are yours from?
It would appear that the stringless allele brings with it unwanted traits.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 16, 2012 9:41:17 GMT -5
Thanks T,
The NOVIC video was interesting, but i question whether he really knows what he's talking about, at least when it comes to the seeds. For the most part his knowledge about pod types seems to be correct. But as for the pea seeds he makes a wide generalization that snow types have round starchy seeds, garden & snap peas have very wrinkly seeds, and string-less snap seeds are somewhere in between.
I think it really depends on the variety and the quality of how the breeding went. I planted over 18 different types this year, most were field peas (with mostly starchy seeds), but i planted a few snow and snap peas as well. I know Amish Snap has round seeds, Midnight Snow has moderate wrinkly seeds, Shiraz has large field-type starchy seeds, Golden Sweet has mostly starchy seeds with little dimples, and Opal Creek has extremely super wrinkly seeds. From what I've read on Rebsie's blog, generally the more wrinkled the pea, the more sugary and tasty the peas are. But the genes for the seeds are certainly separate from the pod, so i think you can get combinations of all types.
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Post by templeton on Apr 16, 2012 16:45:55 GMT -5
Just had a look T. Sorry to tell you that the Sugar Ann I've grown is not stringless. I got my seed from New Gippsland. Where are yours from? Aw, disappointed Ray. Mine are from Erica Vale, the front of the packet just says "Dwarf sugar snap" but the back specifically says 'sugar ann'. I wonder what's going on? Someone's telling porkies. Mine are only a few inches high, so a few months from sampling, or crossing. I'm also amazed that they got such poor germination from their snaps. I've been planting trays of 10 seeds so I can keep track of germination, and I got good germination from my Sugar Ann. My batch of Roi d Carouby on the other hand has been disappointing, and Chamber of Death has been a poor performer again. Might put up a table on my blog. Stringlessness certainly seems like it is a problematic allele. What I liked from the presentation was the clear explanation of their strategy to get round it. I also like that their work is only just starting - makes me feel like we're out there with the pioneers  . Keen, this guy should know his stuff, he's the author of several papers on these pea lines. Maybe he was keeping it simple for the punters, or perhaps his commercial and breeding lines show these characteristics in seed. Wrinkledness is by all accounts linked to sweetness, and as he says you don't need a sweet seed in a snowpea. But that doesn't preclude it as you point out. I've been wondering about pod sweetness, which I like in a snow. I tasted all my pea pods last season, and found some snow pods grassy rather than sweet - Swiss Giant, and Digger's Yellow Podded for example. One of my purple pods, Angela's Blue, seemed sweeter than the other purples, and the same for some of the green shellers. Can't wait for my F2s to flower, must only be a month or so away, hope the weather stays mild. T |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 16, 2012 16:59:48 GMT -5
Yeah, i think your right. I went back and also skimmed the paper you linked to, and it did mention some linking of some genes with reference to string-less peas like wrinkled seeds. It's seems odd that wrinkled seeds could be linked to the gene for stringless in pods, but it's certainly possible. I think his presentation was geared mostly around snap peas, which i dont know anything about, so thats probably whats going on.
From my impression from the paper there could possibly be a few different versions of stringless alleles. If so, it sounded like one of the other versions might not have linkage to other problematic traits, but thats just the impression i got.
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Post by templeton on Apr 16, 2012 17:16:48 GMT -5
From memory,stringlessness was first reported in the 1930's, as sin. It was subsequently lost. With chemical manipulation, stringlessness was again observed, and named sin2 - I don't think they know if it was the same allele, or a new one. There might be other genes lurking out there that are yet to be discovered. They might be turning up, but because no one is looking, they don't get selected. Chew those pods, folks.  T |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 16, 2012 19:46:20 GMT -5
There might be other genes lurking out there that are yet to be discovered. They might be turning up, but because no one is looking, they don't get selected. That reminded me of three pea varieties i was unable to receive from seedbanks awhile back. I believe they were all out of stock at the time. They may or may not be now. But, I'm sure there are plenty of interesting genetics out there that aren't being observed carefully. 1. mut. 'orange pods' (PIS 7575 or M 1599) - GBIS IPK Gatersleben - Presumably with the rare orange pod gene. I would like someone to grow this variety out so i can finally see a picture of this elusive orange pod gene. 2. KOLAROD (NGB21934) - NordGen - This one sounded interesting just from the name. I know it's in sweedish or something, but i kinda like it because it's close to Colorado. I do wonder if any part of it does have red color. 3. (W6 15163) - USDA ARS GRIN - This one for some reason i really want. not only does it have yellow pods, but the crooked pod shape really interests me for some reason. |
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Post by templeton on Apr 16, 2012 20:59:40 GMT -5
I'd like to get 'umbellatum' with terminal inflorescences - would make harvesting easy - as if I haven't got enough to go on with!
T
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Post by raymondo on Apr 16, 2012 21:03:55 GMT -5
T, I did watch the NOVIC video but the poor sound quality made it impossible for me to follow what was going on. Would you mind posting the strategies they had/were planning to get around the ill-effects of the stringless allele?
And another disappointment, or not. Ozrose from the OzGrow forum tried the Erica Vale Sugar Ann and it wasn't Sugar Ann apparently. She was quite miffed I remember. I should track some down and do a side by side comparison, but I know I won't!
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Post by templeton on Apr 16, 2012 21:34:28 GMT -5
T, I did watch the NOVIC video but the poor sound quality made it impossible for me to follow what was going on. Would you mind posting the strategies they had/were planning to get around the ill-effects of the stringless allele? Stringless pollen has a non-competitive pollen tube, so selfing a Ss F1 doesn't result in many homozygous ss F2 progeny. So, they take a female parent Ss F1, back cross it to the homozygous (ss) parent pollen - thus the dodgy stringless pollen doesn't have any other pollen to compete with, so the progeny of the backcross are 1/4 homozygous stringless (ss). Since many of these are feeble, they need a big pool to select from - they are looking at getting about 300 homozygous stringless plants to select from. [/quote]And another disappointment, or not. Ozrose from the OzGrow forum tried the Erica Vale Sugar Ann and it wasn't Sugar Ann apparently. She was quite miffed I remember. I should track some down and do a side by side comparison, but I know I won't![/quote] I must have missed that conversation, Ray. Ah well, at least it will focus my attention on the projects in hand. Keen, re the orange pod phenotype, the JIC database says "Pod parchment and vascular bundles appear a strong orange. Viewed from outside the pod appears dull and discoloured. Orange also appearing in the phloem-xylem tissue of the stem" tho some interesting genes there, particularly the stripy ones T |
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Post by raymondo on Apr 16, 2012 21:39:07 GMT -5
Thanks T.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Apr 17, 2012 10:19:17 GMT -5
Here's a Sugar Ann question, the peas I planted in the "First Snap Pea Planting" thread are all Sugar Ann from Fedco, they are just starting to flower and produce baby pods now. I'm noticing that over 50% of the plants have a single flower per node with the rest having two. It was my understanding that this trait was genetically controlled so what gives? Is Sugar Ann stable? Do I have mixed up seed?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Apr 17, 2012 10:45:09 GMT -5
Seeds is seeds to the seed companies... As long as it more or less looks like Sugar Ann, it will be sold as Sugar Ann. Growers like me that don't know that good peas have two pods per node will never know the difference.
I was a bit miffed at my regional seed company last year... They sold me "Sugar Snap Pea", but approximately half the crop was some type of snow pea. Grumble, grumble.
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Post by robertb on Apr 17, 2012 11:00:28 GMT -5
I'd like to get ' umbellatum' with terminal inflorescences - would make harvesting easy - as if I haven't got enough to go on with! T The ones I have (Salmon Flowered) are pretty light cropping, and I suspect they're all much the same as they almost dropped out of cultivation once the 19th Century breeders got to work. It would be worth experimenting with, though. You're right about ease of harvesting. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 17, 2012 11:12:03 GMT -5
Yes, i also find the Umbellatum-types to be very interesting. I planted several this year. I also had a purple podded plant last year that was not fasciated, but had a different form of determinate flowers, but that one produced only 3 pods on the whole plant, so it's probably not a desirable trait (i dont think i planted it this year). But i have read that there have been a few attempts at breeding an umbellatum type and i guess a few were productive producers too, but mostly fell out of favor because of lodging problems. I think it would still be worth experimenting with though.
For example, what would an umbellatum dwarf look like? or an umbellatum with hyper-tendrils? lol, you never know if one of those crazy crosses might produce something worthwhile.
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