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Post by littleminnie on Jul 10, 2012 19:28:24 GMT -5
Joseph, to make landrace garlic you would have to do seeds and let them cross right? Otherwise they are not changing at all but clones of the parent.
In fact I wonder how many actual different varieties are out there. My guess is many have more than one name. It is not like the change from year to year really.
Question about my shallots. I started from seed and assumed they would multiply like normal but they haven't. So now wouldn't I need to replant every one I grew? Then they will multiply next year?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 10, 2012 19:55:28 GMT -5
Joseph, to make landrace garlic you would have to do seeds and let them cross right? I am calling my garlic a landrace, because I imported around 60 genomes into my garden, and I am still growing whatever varieties were well enough adapted to reproduce vegetatively: As close as I can tell, that's currently around 49 to 52 genomes. Yes, some of them may be clones, but many of them are definitely not. I don't require sexual reproduction every year as part of my definition of a landrace, but I do expect genetic diversity. It doesn't matter to me if the sexual reproduction happened thousands of years ago on a different continent. I'll grab my genomes as-is where-is when-is. I am also diligently studying the latest literature and implementing the learned techniques in order to grow true garlic seeds. If I am not successful this year with my randomly selected garlic cultivars, then I intend to acquire more suitable germplasm this fall of varieties that are known to produce true seeds. Already there have been enough published articles about growing true garlic seeds that descendants of those projects may already be commercially available, or available by begging. Growing hundreds or thousands of new genomes per year from seed would allow faster selection of garlic that thrives in my garden than my current method of importing a dozen or so (new) genomes per year. |
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Post by Drahkk on Jul 10, 2012 21:33:19 GMT -5
Yes, some of them may be clones, but many of them are definitely not. Garlic most definitely morphs and adapts itself to the garden it is grown in from year to year, even if it is only reproduced vegetatively. I'm growing a softneck that used to produce smallish snow white bulbs. I think the original parent was named 'Pioneer', but I'm not positive. No idea where I got it. Anyway, the bulbs are now about 50% larger than they were a few years ago (well, they have been the past couple of years. This year I waited WAY too long to get them in the ground, so they're tiny. I just left most of them in the ground to dig up next year. Anyway...). They're also no longer all white. About a quarter of them end up with purple stripes or a blush. I've never brought any other true garlic in and I don't know anyone else nearby that grows any. Besides which, as far as I know I've never seen them form a scape. I can only guess that this is some form of latent gene activation. Sorry Joseph, I know you gave me the right word for this at one point; is it epigenetics? I am also diligently studying the latest literature and implementing the learned techniques in order to grow true garlic seeds. If I am not successful this year with my randomly selected garlic cultivars, then I intend to acquire more suitable germplasm this fall of varieties that are known to produce true seeds. Already there has been enough published success with growing true garlic seeds that descendants of those projects may already be commercially available, or available by begging. Even if hardnecks aren't usually the best choice for the South, I've been thinking about trying some anyway ever since I found a recipe for pickled scapes. And there's no telling what kind of flavor, productivity, and adaptability can be developed once seed production is restored and crossing is possible. I'll be watching this with interest! MB |
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Post by Drahkk on Jul 10, 2012 22:17:27 GMT -5
Joseph did the garlic chive seeds I sent germinate? Couldn't you use them to try get them to produce bulbs? We have wild garlic here, most call it onions, but it is actually garlic, you want some? Not sure if it has seeds, but spreads every where. If the wild onions are actually garlic, I can attest to their ability to flower. Seen it plenty of times in early spring before I get around to cutting the yard the first time. Could be a starting place if it wouldn't take too prohibitively long to breed them back up to decent size. MB |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 10, 2012 22:19:39 GMT -5
Epigenetics: Inheritable changes in phenotype that are not caused by changes in DNA. I think that garlic is particularly susceptible to epigenetic changes in phenotype because it is grown as a clone. I figure that potatoes are similarly susceptible. In my garden, soft-necked garlics thrive, and hard-necked garlic struggles. That is the opposite of what conventional wisdom would recommend. Joseph did the garlic chive seeds I sent germinate? Couldn't you use them to try get them to produce bulbs? We have wild garlic here, most call it onions, but it is actually garlic, you want some? Not sure if it has seeds, but spreads every where. I had forgotten that I planted your garlic chives months ago, so I checked on them a few minutes ago. Yes they germinated. Thanks. I planted them in a bed without weed seeds so they have done fine despite my forgetfulness. They are about an inch and a half tall. They get watered with the lawn. Garlic chives and domestic garlic are different species, but closely related, so there might be some utility in attempting a cross. I think I'm not ready to take on another allium species. For now I am concentrating on domestic garlic, bulb onions, tree onions, welsh onions, and a wild badlands onion. I love my community, and if germplasm shows up on my doorstep it gets planted someplace, and if it survives semi-feral for a few years then I might use it is some project or other. |
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Post by littleminnie on Jul 11, 2012 19:30:22 GMT -5
Honestly I am skeptical about garlic becoming something new just from growing it a few years.
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Post by Drahkk on Jul 11, 2012 20:46:46 GMT -5
Dug back through bookmarked pages and found where I got the original stock: gurneys.com/pioneer-softneck-garlic-/p/14009/ They advertise larger bulbs than what I was getting initially. The increase in size is probably from replanting the largest cloves for a few years. The first year I planted every clove, no matter how small, to increase my stock, because I was unwilling to pay their price for much. But the color change I can't explain. They were all white for the first couple of years, just like the stock photo. I started seeing purple streaks the third year, and more in the fourth, and unless someone other than me snuck out there and planted some different garlic I have no idea what caused it. But it still tastes good! MB |
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Post by ottawagardener on Jul 12, 2012 9:55:07 GMT -5
I love the idea of someone guerrilla planting some diversity into your garlic crop! I can't answer your question but maybe something to do with environmental conditions does some epigenetic tripping or the like. I seem to recall that I've heard of this phenomena before but I can't remember where.
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Post by steev on Jul 12, 2012 20:58:39 GMT -5
You're so lucky if you have guerrilla garlic planters; all I have is guerrilla weed planters.
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Post by littleminnie on Jul 12, 2012 21:22:15 GMT -5
I had skipped market for a month and went today. A benefit of going is the water cooler talk with the other farmers. I was pretty disappointed with my garlic crop because of planting in poorly readied soil in fall and then no water or snow for it. But it turns out my harvest is pretty decent for the area. Everyone is having a poor showing. And the yellow leaves on my hardnecks were seen all over. I am going to the garlic festival next month and maybe I will hear more.
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Post by Leenstar on Jul 12, 2012 21:37:34 GMT -5
This is my third year doing garlic and my second year in the same bed. I have tried to expand out my garlic to increase the number of heads I get.
First year I grew German Hardy from a head that produced four large cloves and another garlic that I think is music.
I took all four cloves and planted them and got much bigger garlic bulbs and more cloves per head for each that I planted. The other variety was small cloved about 2 almonds in size.
I took the two largest cloves from each of the 4 duaghter german hardy and the largest cloves from the the other variety.
I have seen a steady trend towards larger bigger heads, bigger cloves and more cloves/head in both populations. Maybe they both just love my soil but they seem to do very well and have adapted to my rather crowded planting system.
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Post by s2man on Jul 23, 2012 16:11:40 GMT -5
I lost my garlic collection when we moved in 2010. Between moving and fixing up the house, I didn't have time to prepare a bed that fall. I thought I would plant them early in the spring, but they were all dessicated by then.  I started over last fall with Rosewood, Transylvanian and Italian Purple. They did wonderful through our mild winter; stayed green all winter and were a foot tall in the spring. I've ordered Silver Rose, a late, low-heat variety for eating raw, for planting this fall, and am looking for an early, low-heat variety. I'm trying to verify with the grower if Slovenian is what I am looking for. If anyone has an early, low-heat variety, I'd be happy to buy some from you. I'm thinking the high-heat varieties may have a market with Asian cooks. Anyone have experience with that? |
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Post by s2man on Jul 23, 2012 16:23:15 GMT -5
Joseph, according to Gourmet Garlic Gardens' website, Rosewood and Wild Buff retain the ability to produce seeds. You may want to throw a couple of those into your mix to get pollinated by your other varieties. Just a thought...
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 23, 2012 17:19:13 GMT -5
s2man: Welcome to the group, and thanks for the data. I wasn't planning on doing a garlic seed project when I planted this year's crop. But now I'm in the middle of one anyway. If I don't get any true garlic seeds this year, then I'll pay more attention to germplasm selection for next year.
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Post by templeton on Jul 23, 2012 19:17:40 GMT -5
Differences in growing conditions year on year have a big influence on my garlic. Varieties that did well one year struggled the next - other varieites that had a poor harvest, and which I subsequently only planted a few plants of the next season where the best producers - Keeping ability varies year on year for me too, with some long keepers sprouting early, and others reversing the trend. I think growing conditions has lots to do with variation in garlic. And this might also explain some of the variation in colour Drahkk noticed - slightly different nutrient levels inducing colour change - like hydrangeas? Some of the very colourful varieties I've planted have come up as just mildly purpled in harvest.
T
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