parsnip diversity for seed production

[templeton]

I want to grow a short fat parsnip. I'm also now addicted to crossing things. I've grown out over winter a number of parsnips, including Kral and Halblange, and a local variety, Melbourne Whiteskin. But I haven't got either the plants, nor the room to grow out 200 plants as recommended.
Would the diversity of genetics - mixed up varieties - make up in part for the lack of diversity in individuals? I haven't counted but I've probably got about 10 individuals of 4 varieties in one plot (= 40 total), and another plot of about 50 Kral, which I was going to keep separate as a pure line.
My plan was to cross up the mixed plot, choosing F1 seed from the short fat varieties as parents, grow out the F1, and maybe the F2, select for short fat, then introduce that back into the Kral seed mix.
I've also got about a dozen plants in pots that were going to be planted out on my allotment, and allowed to cross, again taking seed from the short fat parents, and throwing it into the F1 seed bag.

Given all my other breeding projects room is going to continue to be limited, and parsnip seed has very limited viability (I know, I know, choose some other vegetable, but Ms T likes her parsnips, and I've invested effort into growing the first generation, so I would like to continue)

Any advice?
T

[raymondo]

Those numbers are bigger than I'd have thought necessary, unless parsnip suffers from inbreeding depression the way corn does. I've had a parsnip coming up in my yard for three years now just from three or four plants left to seed each year. The plants seem very vigorous, in fact, probably better than any I sow intentionally, and the roots are still okay to eat.
I'm hoping to do something similar to you using Kral, Hablange weisse and whatever else is going. My goal is much the same, short, fat roots. Maybe we could improve diversity by swapping seeds at the F2 and beyond? That way neither of us needs to grow massive numbers. I was hoping a max of 20 left for seed would do the trick. And I've heard that freezing prolongs the life of the seed quite well. Something to be checked out there!

[templeton]

Happy to swap, Ray. Since I have separate pots for 3 or 4 varieties, with 3 or 4 plants in each pot, I could keep them separate. What do you think?
At the moment I've got Halblange, Kral, Melb Whiteskin, deGurnesey (spelling?) a couple of Cobhams, and some hybrids, Yatesnip and Gladiator, which may or may not be, of course.
Might be able to get my hands on a commercial variety from a grower south of melb - yet to test the waters.

T

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Templeton: Great project. Your methodology seems sound. It's something that's needing to be done. Gardeners with hard soil could sure use a short/fat parsnip that grows vigorously. At least in my garden, Kral survives, but it doesn't thrive like other parsnips. I attribute that to it's origins in Russia which is about as unlike my climate as it's possible to get and still call them temperate climates.

Ray: Go for it, and happy collaboration.

I think that the hype about inbreeding depression is mostly a ploy by seed corporations to frighten people into buying fresh seed every year. You are starting with lots of diversity. That will carry through into the offspring for many generations, as long as you don't get into single-seed-breeding. Then you do the standard landrace maintenance things: Save seed from a diversity of parents. Plant some 2 to 3 year old seed each year. Swap seed with local collaborators that are working on the same project. Introduce foreign pollen from time to time. If you really want to get radical, seed a few parsnips around the neighborhood to grow wild. A small amount of that pollen will infuse into your garden.

I planted 2 year old (or more) parsnip seed this year. Germination rate was fine... My planting technique is to plant a pinch of seed every foot with a stick seeder, and then thin.

[richardw]

I would tend to agree also that one would need to have upwards of 200 plants to avoid a lack of diversity,ive been maintaining my Hollow Crown line for years with only 50 each year and i would have to say the line has improved a lot since first growing it 20+ years ago,the roots much larger and the flower stems taller than back then.

This season i must get off my bum and start doing what you are talking about Joseph as in growing from older seed,for me 99% of my crop is sold and the rest is used for the following years seed plants,any remaining is then given to friends.
ok from now on i'm going to start making the dates on the packets and put them away.

[templeton]

Joseph,
Thanks for the encouragement. I was reinvigorated by the pictures of your Kral , and the changes from season 1 to season 2, by a bit of careful selection.
T

[raymondo]

T, I think the full name of de Guernsey is Demi-long de Guernsey so it would no doubt be similar to Hablange weisse. That's only a surmise on my part.
Mine were sown mid-winter so I'm not entirely sure when they will flower, I presume this summer. I'll dig them all and move a few of the best of each into a bed together to do their thing. That will provide my F1 seed mix. With any luck, I should have a nice winter crop going by autumn next year.

[templeton]

thanks ray, just googled it and found this description (after googletranslate) from Bio-saatgut
"Parsnips, Panais Demi Long de Guernsey

Description:
Half Long white parsnip with very fleshy root. Aromatic and delicious as a vegetable in stews and fried like French fries.

Culture: Sow March isolate in place in rows with 30 cm spacing in the row at about 10 cm. Too close as you get to thin roots. The roots are too far, they become too large and the tissue is spongy.
Certification: Agriculture Biologique
Specification:
Fruit Color: White"
Pity their White Spear variety is unavailable - looks interesting.
T

[12540dumont]

Hey Oz, I would love to help with this. Holly

[richardw]

i would offer some of my line templeton but you probably don't want it because of the long tapered root.

[templeton]

Thanks Richard, but I think I've got enough at the moment. I've got a few long roots in, just to add a bit of diversity, but I am concentrating on the shorties. I might ask in a year or two, tho.

Holly, given how many seeds come out of an apiaceae head, I imagine the parsnips won't be much different, so there will be heaps of seed available, given the number of plants. Not sure when they will be flowering at the moment, but like Ray, mine have been in since autumn, so I'm expecting them to show some signs soon.

This could be fun!
T

[raymondo]

I haven't grown a lot of parsnip, except for the self-seeded ones I get. This year I sowed a few deliberately made the mistake of sowing mid-winter and they didn't really grow until spring. I'll try sowing when I sow my winter carrot crop, that is, mid-summer. Hopefully they will have some size before winter sets in.
When do you sow parsnip T and Holly?

[canadamike]

I am not that found of parsnips...but for a fewv years have grown a foundness for rooting parsley...has anybody here grown them? I still am drooling about they parsley roots I bought in an arabian grocery store in Ottawa. They were huge, flavourful and coming from Texas

[templeton]

Ray,
part of this project was for me to get my eye in on parsnip - haven't had much success with it in the past.
My first batches for this project were sown autumn equinox, 21 march, with fill in sowings a month later. They seemed to struggle a bit through autumn, I think it might have been regularity of water.
The big patch of Kral was sown mid June, and transplanted around 3rd August. These are going well, progressing slowly through winter, and really putting on growth for the last month or so.
I had a bit of a peek by scraping some soil yesterday, and they are certainly short and stumpy. I've got them planted way too close, but since this a seed increase block rather than a selection block, I figured it didn't matter. They might be self selecting for competitiveness, anyway. Same with my crossing block - very close planting. I was going to thin, but germination was patchy, so I just left them all in to do their thing.

[raymondo]

Nov 3, 2012 15:37:01 GMT -5 canadamike said:

I am not that found of parsnips...but for a fewv years have grown a foundness for rooting parsley...has anybody here grown them? I still am drooling about they parsley roots I bought in an arabian grocery store in Ottawa. They were huge, flavourful and coming from Texas

Growing some for the first time Michel. They are slow growers so it will some time before I get to sample them. I found a Czech seed company that lists a good number of cultivars. they are apparently very popular in Eastern Europe.