Potato Onions and True Potato Onion Seed TPOS

[richardw]

Not short on potato onion plants toomanyirons - looking good

[davidp]

So, many of my currently-growing TPOS plants are sending up flowering seed heads.
What is the consensus on keeping or removing these?
In theory, if one removed these flowering heads, (supposedly) the plant would divert its energy to producing bigger bulbs, as opposed to producing seeds.
Then, with bigger bulbs to plant in the fall, you would (supposedly) also get bigger bulbs the following spring.
On the other hand, if you cut off the seed tops, then you will get no seeds to further experiment with.

What say you all?

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I think when actual measurements are made that the difference in garlic production between leaving the scapes on, and taking them off is less than 5%. With potatoes, I have found that the plants that produce the most seeds also tend to produce more tubers. So I don't worry about removing flowers from things that I grow. I'm not going to notice a 5% difference in productivity.

I am selecting my potato onions for flower stalks that originate on the side of the bulb, rather than in the center. Because if a flower stalk originates in the center of the bulb, then that bulb will not store well, regardless of whether or not I cut it off.

[davidp]

Jun 14, 2018 10:50:48 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

I think when actual measurements are made that the difference in garlic production between leaving the scapes on, and taking them off is less than 5%. With potatoes, I have found that the plants that produce the most seeds also tend to produce more tubers. So I don't worry about removing flowers from things that I grow. I'm not going to notice a 5% difference in productivity. 
---------------------------------------------------------------------Excellent response.

[davidp]

Jun 14, 2018 11:24:39 GMT -5 toomanyirons said:

I grow separate plantings for food/bulb stock and for true seed production. In the food planting I cull out any bulbs that produce seed heads because I do not want to unintentionally create crop stock that has a propensity for blooming. I am inclined to agree with people who feel that blooming/true seed set on crop stock is an undesirable trait for the very reasons you mention. Folks like us, however, also consider true seed production to be desirable for experimentation so we pretty much have to work both ends. Otherwise an undesirable thing (to me) might occur like the Kelly Wintertons that bloom consistently every year, at least in my experience - at first I thought it a desirable trait but I have changed my mind and have stopped experimenting with those lines.

I will be watching my potato onion generations originally grown from true seed as I grow out the bulb stock over the coming years. I plan on culling out bloomers from potential crop stock but I intend on saving and replanting them in the true seed production bed. My goal now is to get multigenerational true seed from stock originally grown from true seed, that is when things will really get interesting I think.

I still feel that size is overrated. I expect my potato onion bulb size to increase somewhat due to my selecting and also by having virus-free stock grown from true seed, but I will always prioritize flavor and good storage characteristics over size. My Kelly Wintertons get quite big but they only taste o.k. and they have a propensity to rot in storage. I do not hate them, just think he missed the mark a bit. And I do not think they are pure strain potato onions either.  Not that I care about pure strains so much as I think he brought in some undesirable traits...------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Interesting perspective. While I have lots of green mountain clones, I have lots and lots more of Dutch Red Shallot varietals. These are the most, most promising TPOS-types I'm raising now. That beautiful, beautiful purple color, huge size, enchanting aroma when first sliced open, fabulous incredible taste (sauteed in butter) . . . . and extremely healthy, vigorous, freeze-resistant plants. Simply Amazing edible alliums. Right now I've got hundreds just starting to matriculate. Wish me luck with this batch.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I have been targeting my potato onions to plants that produce only one seed stalk, and 6 to 8 bulbs. Seems like the sweet spot to me. I get seed, and all the bulbs aren't damaged from flowering. And I'm selecting for flower stalks that grow from the side of a bulb, rather than from the middle of it.

[davidp]

Jun 15, 2018 9:21:34 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

I have been targeting my potato onions to plants that produce only one seed stalk, and 6 to 8 bulbs. Seems like the sweet spot to me. I get seed, and all the bulbs aren't damaged from flowering. And I'm selecting for flower stalks that grow from the side of a bulb, rather than from the middle of it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Excellent response. Brilliant idea. Thank you for your erudite observation. This is a great way to handle the problem, I will try it for sure.

[templeton]

just getting into growth phase here.
I was very disorganised last year, and/or I had too many different lines to follow, and beds, then harvest bags got poorly labelled. I think I have planted out one of my early Winterton bulbing selections for increase, and a mixed planting of Winterton storage survivors, and a line of topsetting Wintertons. I think I've got 3 of Richard's Amuri reds coming on.
I could just let everything cross up nd see what happens...

[richardw]

My Amuri Red bulbils came through winter really well this year.

[walt]

So YPO can be in storage for over a year.  Do any other onions store that long?  Anybody?
When I was working with Violet de Galmi onions in Niger in 1978-1982, I read all the research I could find on Violet de Galmi, and on onions in general.
Several people had published results of onion storage experiments.  Violet de Galmi always had * after it.  The * always lead to a footnote, saying Violet de Galmi still had more than 50% good onions when the experiment was terminated at 365 days.  Sometimes Australian Brown shared the *.  Nothing else ever had the *.  
I guess YPO can be re-named YPO* .
So again I ask.  Do any other onions store for over a year?  

[templeton]

Walt,
This weekend I looked at my hanging bunches of onions in the carport, and found a Mill Creek in a bunch of shrivelled empty shells that was still in good condition. Thats about 9 months old, way older than the 3 months they usually last. Given the reported plasticity of onions, I wonder if you could start to select for a methuselah storage onion?
T

[walt]

Given that some onion varieties store a year, and onion crops have never failed here, they store well enough for my needs.
The traditional way Violet de Galmi is stored in Niger is to pile them 4 or 5 deep on chicken wire shelves, under a grass roof.  Chickens and lizards climb over them and eat insect big enough to notice.  Chickens also shit on them, which I would think could be a source of rot.
The onions are grown with irrigation in the Cool Dry season, then stored though the Big Hot season, the Rainy season. and the Little Hot season, just setting there with no protection except from rain.  Then they are replanted for seed.  This gives really hard selection for long storage.  I don't need to improve that.

To get shorter season onions, the guy before me crossed some with White Creole.  That population was huge, by far the biggest onions I ever saw.  I mean double the largest of any other onion I've seen.

I had thought that V de G might improve YPO*, but V de G is tropic adapted, so maybe not.