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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 23, 2013 19:42:28 GMT -5
Found the packet, it said 2011.
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Post by extremegardener on Feb 24, 2013 9:26:47 GMT -5
Found the packet, it said 2011. OK, it could be Johnson or Dolloff I think. Actually it looks more like Johnson, which is also a bush bean |
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Post by zeedman on Feb 24, 2013 15:39:55 GMT -5
An interesting thread. I grew "Dolloff" for the first time last year, with seed from an SSE member in Maine. While all of the harvested seed had the proper coloration, I did have one plant whose seed had a cutshort appearance, with seed that was more rounded than the rest. I have considered trying to grow the cutshort variant, to see whether it would breed true, or whether it would show segregation in the F2.
Some beans seem to be more prone to crossing, such as "Jeminez" and "Goose". Makes me wonder if "Dolloff" is one of those also.
It comes as a surprise to me also that the F1 between a pole bean & a bush bean would exhibit a bush habit. The pole trait should be dominant. It sure is a pretty bean, though... I hope it can be stabilized. I had an apparent cross show up in one of my shelly beans which I hope to stabilize; I'll try to post a photo.
Incidentally, I was very impressed with "Dolloff". It produced over 4 pounds of seed from a 12-foot row, in an unusually hot summer when many of my beans struggled.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 24, 2013 20:08:03 GMT -5
Yes, I too found Dolloff unbelievably productive. Doloff and Octarora Cornfield were the hands down yield winners in the pole bean trials last year. 2012 was a lousy growing season that was hard on lots of crops, so an excellent test of the resilience of an heirloom.
Brown Trout X Johnson is an equally interesting cross. Can't wait to see the F2 developments.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 24, 2013 20:09:27 GMT -5
I'm going to have to get some Johnson from you to grow to compare against the offspring. This is going to be a fun little bean project.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jul 12, 2013 8:30:44 GMT -5
Are we all certain that indeterminate is dominant to determinate in P vulgaris? I'm pretty sure I would have noticed if one of the plants in my row of brown trout was viney/twining last year. I have Brown Trout growing again, it is fully determinate/bush. SO is Johnson bean which I'm growing for the first time this year as well. But the cross seedlings are showing a lot of indeterminate growth, so much so that I threw a cob-job trellis over the little row for them to climb on.  |
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Post by raymondo on Jul 12, 2013 16:38:24 GMT -5
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jul 16, 2013 5:30:33 GMT -5
Yes, it seems pretty cut and dried. I must have not realized/noticed the viney plant I suppose. They are certainly segregating for det/indet. I only planted about 12 beans.
About half of them are determinate. At least two of those are already flowering heavily. The indeterminate types are busy climbing and haven't flowered yet.
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 16, 2013 9:34:59 GMT -5
I sometimes get the feeling that at least some beans are "conditional indeterminate", that is, that whether they become vines or bushes depends not only on their genetics but on the environment around them. It happened this year with both my Bantu and Fort portal mixed beans. Both of these are normally determinate (and pretty short determinate) however in both cases two of the plants suddenly went indeterminate and became incredibly long vines. While it is possible that as both of these are more landraces than discrete varieties (allowing for the possibility of both det. and indet. members) I tend to think this is not the case, if only because I have never heard of a bean type where plant form was not selected for one one side or another (whether you grow bush beans or pole beans is up to the cultivator, but I have NEVER heard of anyone who knowingly planted beans of both types as part of the same planting unit; I imagine that just makes cultivation and harvest a nightmare.) in Both cases the ones that went pole were those closest to the edge of the pedestal, where the plants are in a bit more shade (since the wall of the house blocks some of the sun) I wonder if that triggers it. In the case of the FPM, it was the reverse of what oxbow described; the indeterminate plants flowered and podded literally MONTHS before the others;though they stayed as green beans unusually long, so the difference in harvest time isn't quite so long (I harvested the pods of the indit. about 2-3 days ago; the det. look like they'll be ready in about another week or two.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 16, 2013 15:12:35 GMT -5
(whether you grow bush beans or pole beans is up to the cultivator, but I have NEVER heard of anyone who knowingly planted beans of both types as part of the same planting unit; I imagine that just makes cultivation and harvest a nightmare.) I did that last year... Planted dry beans from whatever source not knowing whether they were vining or bush. I let them sprawl in the field. And tried to only harvest bush beans. But I got plenty of pole beans in the mix as well. This spring I replanted the collected seed, and whenever I am moving irrigation pipe, or walking past the row I stop to pull the pole beans. I want the population to be only bush beans. So today when I was moving pipe, I saw several bean vines growing side by side, so I stopped to pull them. Ooops. I was pulling the runner beans instead of a pole bean in the bush bean patch! Resilient Bean Breeder is a mix of pole beans and bush beans. So far I am letting the pole beans live, but I intend to separate them at harvest. Woo Hoo! I have runner bean flowers. It's been since my grandfather died 28 years ago that I grew a decent crop of runner beans. Perhaps this will be the year that I grow a successful crop.  |
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Post by blueadzuki on Jul 16, 2013 15:24:31 GMT -5
(whether you grow bush beans or pole beans is up to the cultivator, but I have NEVER heard of anyone who knowingly planted beans of both types as part of the same planting unit; I imagine that just makes cultivation and harvest a nightmare.) I did that last year... Planted dry beans from whatever source not knowing whether they were vining or bush. I let them sprawl in the field. And tried to only harvest bush beans. But I got plenty of pole beans in the mix as well. This spring I replanted the collected seed, and whenever I am moving irrigation pipe, or walking past the row I stop to pull the pole beans. I want the population to be only bush beans. So today when I was moving pipe, I saw several bean vines growing side by side, so I stopped to pull them. Ooops. I was pulling the runner beans instead of a pole bean in the bush bean patch! Resilient Bean Breeder is a mix of pole beans and bush beans. So far I am letting the pole beans live, but I intend to separate them at harvest. Woo Hoo! I have runner bean flowers. It's been since my grandfather died 28 years ago that I grew a decent crop of runner beans. Perhaps this will be the year that I grow a successful crop. But you just confirmed what you said, you are selecting FOR bush beans, and rouging out the poles (in the first population) and dividing the two (in your resilient). You are NOT keeping the population permanently mixed . That's what I said nobody probably does, growers may pick bush, they may pick pole but they are not going to keep a mix where both exist and they don't know which they'll get from seed to seed as it is. They'll select for one or the other, or at least split the two apart. And I do the same with the rice beans (well normally, I'm not doing it this year because I have so few): I yank out the poles and leave the bushes where they are. It just doesn't have anything to do with wanting one shape or the other (the poles don't flower, and they strangle the bushes if they get the chance.) |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 16, 2013 15:33:53 GMT -5
Precisely. Planting them all jumbled up was intentional. But they have different agronomic properties so eventually they will be separated.
When I received the Long Island Seed Project snap beans, they grew as a mix of pole beans and bush beans. I have one type of pole bean in the patch still. It is just too pretty to eliminate, and I feel a certain reluctance to mess too much with the genepool. But as long as I keep the population of the pretty pole around 5%, that seems acceptable to me. It doesn't sprawl so much as it flops.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jul 16, 2013 21:31:06 GMT -5
When I spoke to Carol Deppe about the Resilient Bean Breeder mix, she felt the viney-ness was a useful trait. At harvest she clips the plants off at the base and rolls the entire row up in a big mat since the plants are all tied together with vines. Then she hauls the giant bean roll away on a tarp to a barn to finish drying under cover. She also said she used a tractor or car to thresh the bean mat by driving over it repeatedly and then threshing.
I was intrigued enough by this to attempt it myself now that I have enough seed to plant several rows. I haven't done any selection on them at all.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 16, 2013 22:55:32 GMT -5
I use about the same technique for harvesting beans as Carol. I prefer to harvest beans by clipping them off at the base and threshing them on a tarp. My climate is so arid that they dry in the field. And I use my body weight rather than a car. But it's the same general principle. I have a windrow of peas drying in the field today. I gathered them prior to irrigating.
The first time I did this I pulled the plants. That was a mistake, because it is hard to use winnowing to separate dirt/rocks from beans.
My main problem with letting bean vines sprawl in the field is that it makes weeding very difficult. It wouldn't be so much trouble if I weeded them more reliably when they were small.
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Post by steev on Jul 17, 2013 0:14:39 GMT -5
My technique is to cut them into a burlap tarp, hang the bundle to air-dry (and avoid rodents), then jump all over them.
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