soil building with weeds

[olddog]

are tractors really compatible with fluffy, raised beds? oxbow has the right idea, to my mind.

[steev]

Yes; I think you have to suit the practice to the plant. An area fit only for grain may develop eventually to soil fit for fussier things, as you keep working it up.

[MikeH]

It looks like raised beds can be done mechanically on a commercial scale.

From www.kenncomfg.com/

The first thing that strikes me about these images is no soil compaction and no weeds/moisture retention provided by the plastic mulch.

Power weeders from

www.samd.com.au/rbmb.html

Lettuce

[ottawagardener]

I'm just writing about these vary distinctions for something for my website. I find SFG a bit prescriptive. As already mentioned, raised beds are not exclusive to SFG as I think has been mentioned as they more properly belong to one of two movements, either intensive gardening from Chadwick and made popular by Jeavons among others including the American intensive troupe not to forgot the methods designed further afield, and climatic reasons for raising beds such as bed warming, preventing water logging or in conjunction with irrigation methods etc...

Wide bed planting is something different again and often is used in conjunction with raised beds. When wide beds are used with raised beds, it's generally considered part of the intensive planting movements. Of course, there are issues with using living mulches of the same crop (to contrast this with underplanting) including disease transmission or fungal growth as stated.

As for the issues stated by Joseph. This is stated emphatically by authors such as Solomon and I've experienced that many crops such as root crops for winter storage will bless you with superior quality if you give them more space.

Most CSA farmers around here use unmulched, cultivated methods to allow for mechanical cultivation. However, I have seen examples of agricultural low/no dig organic systems that are based on planting into plant residue (that's not been fried by herbicides) and certainly some market gardeners use wide row methods as long as they are compatible with efficient tending.

Anyhow, interesting discussion.

[olddog]

yes, this is a very interesting discussion.

Steev, i believe you are right in what you said about suiting the practice to the plant. I suppose you mean incorporating organic matter will make it richer, and able to support a crop more fussy than grain.

[steev]

Exactly so; I mostly consider grain to be a pioneer crop. In some cases useful as a weed-suppressive crop.

My assumption is that one will add organic matter, whether grown or imported, as one can, thereby improving the soil, whether tilled or not. As this is done, the soil becomes more hospitible to "garden" plants, as contrasted to "field" plants, i e grains.

C'mon, folks! The biggest crop in America is corn, an enormous bunch-grass! Grass can be grown in shit soil, especially if you give it lots of artificial fertilizer! You want some sweet corn? 'Kay, you've gone beyond the field corn that agrobusiness wants to grow, talking about trouble to grow and labor-cost to harvest.

It is certainly true that my general attention is to the gardener-scale, rather than the farmer-scale, given that farmer-scale is for sale in bulk. I'm sure there is need, for some, to draw lines, but I'm in no doubt of what I mean, fuzzy as that may appear. If that's unclear, you know where I can be PM'ed or open-questioned. Please do; I hope to learn something useful.

[MikeH]

Jan 21, 2013 17:52:01 GMT -5 ottawagardener said:

I've experienced that many crops such as root crops for winter storage will bless you with superior quality if you give them more space.

Superior quality = Size? Taste? Yield? Isn't this a function of the growing medium? A soil rich in organic matter should allow for denser planting while a soil not rich in organic matter will require more widely spaced planting. It seems to me that yields, weeds, disease, etc. are less a function of Jethro, Mel, John/Alan and more a function of the soil itself. There's evidence that arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi reduce fungal disease in the root zone and aid in the uptake of phosphorus. If you have a stronger plant, you should get more resistance to disease. Since AMF live in about the first 25 cm of soil, [so] you need to till shallowly,” says Hamel. “Tilling to 10 cm will not have too much effect but if you go to 20 cm with a plow, you will have more of an impact on AMF networks.”, it seems to me that minimally disturbed raised beds should produce stronger plants, ie, disease resistant plants.

So where does the fungal disease come from? I think from watering method. A quick search of Jeavons' book produces no hits for drip irrigation but lots of watering hits. These hits yield "spraying water into the air and letting it fall back down" and "Some plants, such as those in the cabbage family, like wet leaves. It is all right, and in fact beneficial, to water these plants from overhead. Other plants, such as tomatoes, peas, and members of the squash and melon families, can suffer from wilt and mildew, and their fruit may rot when their leaves are wet, especially in foggy or humid climates. Take care when watering these plants to water only the soil around them whenever possible."

I think that using drip irrigation or watering at the soil level rather than from above is key to reducing fungal diseases when you are growing intensively. And deep mulching is critical to reducing the need to water. Bartholomew doesn't mention mulching at all and Jeavons talks about a living mulch quite a bit but seems to miss the point of mulching when he says "Until the living mulch effect occurs, the flats and beds dry out more rapidly."

There's a lot of research that says that mulch is a breeding ground for pathogens. There's also research that says that the physical barrier of the mulch prevents the splashing of soil-borne pathogens onto plants. And a mulch of plants with specific disease suppressing characteristics might be even better - www.organicagcentre.ca/NewspaperArticles/tcog_2012/tcog_cover_crop_disease_suppression.asp#a and you get the cover crop fertility benefits as well. Hmmmmmmmmm.

We've never seen fungal diseases other than one case of late blight on our tomatoes which I put down to too much crowding of plants leading to no air circulation. I wonder if the lack of fungal disease has to do with the fertility of the soil? It seems that horticultural problems lead back to soil fertility or rather lack of it, ie, organic matter content.

[oxbowfarm]

I guess the main point I was trying to make that no one is mentioning is the labor component.

Intensive plantings require much closer maintenance. With so many plants sharing so much root space, fertility requirements are very high. Likewise water requirements. Irrigation is absolutely essential. You need people out in the growing area checking on plants every day. Labor is expensive.

Extensive plantings are much more tolerant of lower fertility and reduced watering because each individual plant has much more soil volume to itself to find fertility and water. It lends itself to much lower levels of monitoring. You plant, cultivate occasionally, and harvest.

There is no question that intensive methods yield much higher when done properly, but only if you have sufficient LABOR to maintain the system otherwise they tend to yield zero. With extensive methods you almost always get SOMETHING.

There is value in both methods for different things. I use them both.

[MikeH]

This is about cover cropping but the beds are permanent and raised. I'd love to see the cash crops she's growing. BTW, the manure spreader in the last shot isn't spreading manure - it's leaf mulch.

[ottawagardener]

That's why I mention that most CSA farmers (that I'm familiar with) use less intensive methods.

Mike: have you heard of Hida Manns? veggiepatchreimagined.blogspot.ca/2010/05/fungi-instead-of-fertilizer-hida-manns.html

Convert to no-till, field scale: www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXCLVCJWTU

Lots of info here: Series of high residue systems: www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB4AE9DB8C30652F3

Another interesting link on larger scale, organic no-till: www.extension.org/pages/18526/what-is-organic-no-till-and-is-it-practical

By superior quality I mean size and keeping ability mostly but taste as well depending on the variety. Good soil can mean closer spacing but there's something to be said for wide spacing with some crops. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is bare or even mulched ground visible between mature plants, it just means that at mature size, they have/had lots of space to grow. Keeping in mind that even in excellent soil, wider spacing *can* mean bigger, healthier plants. Stress to plants can cause poor growth (even if sometimes I do this on purpose to induce flowering etc...).

Have you read Teaming with Microbes? Fun if short book. Anyhow, it's possible that a diverse micro-ecosystem could out-compete pathogenic organisms. However, as I like to say, the organic farmer's ideal of balance, diversity, good soil etc... can be thought of in parallel with good food = good health in modern thought. Though good soil (cultural techniques etc...)=good plants much of the time, sometimes pathogenic organisms can overwhelm the best of systems either locally or more widely just as disease can cut short a human life despite that person being in excellent health and taking all precautions.

[ottawagardener]

Oh yes, you can contrast size per plant and yield per field. It all depends on what you need. Large vegetables or large overall harvest and that would depend on what the plant and its use are.

[davida]

Jan 22, 2013 6:33:37 GMT -5 MikeH said:

This is about cover cropping but the beds are permanent and raised. I'd love to see the cash crops she's growing.

Interesting video. Here is another one that praises the benefits of growing seven to 25 cover crops together. Now we are starting to talk real biodiversity.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWXCLVCJWTU

[MikeH]

Jan 22, 2013 8:58:38 GMT -5 ottawagardener said:

Mike: have you heard of Hida Manns? veggiepatchreimagined.blogspot.ca/2010/05/fungi-instead-of-fertilizer-hida-manns.html

Yes but other than your interviews there's nothing to speak of on the net. Elaine Ingham, now with Rodale, is one of the more visible experts in the field - soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/biology.html

There's a pretty comprehensive article here - web.archive.org/web/20090301220105/http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23428

Steve Solomon, former owner of Territorial Seeds, has an excellent online library - www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/01aglibwelcome.html of out-of-print books on what he calls "holistic agriculture". It contains works by some of the soil fertility and health pioneers - Sir Albert Howard, Lady Eve Balfour, Edward Faulkner.

And if you are really into the subject of mycorrhizal fungi - docs.google.com/folder/d/0B4z8GE1bbsDjSXlSQ1BxRFlDNHc/edit

By superior quality I mean size and keeping ability mostly but taste as well depending on the variety. Good soil can mean closer spacing but there's something to be said for wide spacing with some crops. That doesn't necessarily mean that there is bare or even mulched ground visible between mature plants, it just means that at mature size, they have/had lots of space to grow. Keeping in mind that even in excellent soil, wider spacing *can* mean bigger, healthier plants. Stress to plants can cause poor growth (even if sometimes I do this on purpose to induce flowering etc...).

I wasn't suggesting dense planting in raised beds for everything. Unpredictable or unruly plants need lots of space simply because they are unpredictable and unruly. Plants like squash, tomatoes, broccoli, melons, cucumbers, potatoes, etc. More "disciplined" plants like onions, garlic, root vegetables can be planted intensively.

Have you read Teaming with Microbes? Fun if short book.

Quite a while ago. It's a nice, light intro to the subject.

Anyhow, it's possible that a diverse micro-ecosystem could out-compete pathogenic organisms.

Works that way in Nature. The challenge is trying to produce food & other useful things from the soil while maintaining that natural balance. It seems to me that the more you mimic Nature, the more likely you are to have fewer problems. But the complexity of Nature makes that an impossibility so you intervene as little as possible once you think you have a good base. I'm re-reading Fukuoka's One Straw Revolution right now and he clearly struggled with how to understand Nature. He essentially gave up and said "Do nothing". He didn't quite mean that. It was more like do as little as you possibly can. And so you leave vegetable roots in the ground to decompose. You don't rototill. You chop-and-drop. You grow covercrops to restore/maintain fertility. You grow plants that bring in the hoverflies and lacewings. You use permanent nitrogen-fixing cover crops where you can. You use compost teas and mulches which are a form of compost tea in that mulches leach into the soil as they decompose. You never leave the soil uncovered. You leave the weeds that aren't in the way. After struggling with my neat-and-tidy gene, I'd much rather leave the dandelion growing in with the veggies as long as it's not smothering them. It'll decompose over the winter. Thinking that I'll prevent more dandelions by pulling it out is akin to Canute trying to hold back the tide. Eternal laws prevail. And so on and so on.

However, as I like to say, the organic farmer's ideal of balance, diversity, good soil etc... can be thought of in parallel with good food = good health in modern thought.

Steve Solomon's new book links good soil to good food - www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0865717184/ref=sib_dp_kd#reader-link. Soil minerals, the micro nutrients isn't an area that I've looked at much. I know about the macros - N,P,K but not the micros. I grow comfrey because of it's ability to mine the micro-nutrients but I haven't taken the time to understand what's going on. Time to do so, I think. I haven't read it yet and Christmas has come and gone so it may be a while before I read it. I'll get it through an inter-library loan when it makes it into Ontario libraries.

Though good soil (cultural techniques etc...)=good plants much of the time, sometimes pathogenic organisms can overwhelm the best of systems either locally or more widely just as disease can cut short a human life despite that person being in excellent health and taking all precautions.

Shit happens but most often shit happens for a reason. If pathogenic organisms overwhelm a system, the questions is why? Is it something that you have done/not done? Is it something over which you have no control? I'm thinking of treatment-free bee keeping. You can introduce nothing into the hive, not even herbs and still have massive problems with chemicals in the hive because bees forage over a very wide range of chemically laced environment.

[Walk]

One thing I've noticed is that even though our soil is rich enough to support more intensive plant densities, we have no control over what the weather will contribute. With the closer plant spacings and our very humid, Midwest summers, yields and quality can suffer if air circulation and sunlight penetration is reduced. Some crops tolerate those conditions better than others. But for some crops like dry bush beans, air circulation is key to getting good dry down of the pods. Finding the right spacing really depends on microclimate conditions. Most techniques and varieties that work well for us in our current ridgetop garden didn't work in our old site, only a mile away as the crow flies but in a deep, north-facing valley (cold most every night, heavy dews, sandy soil).

[ottawagardener]

I do think there is a high level of stewardship involved in our interactions with growing things and we change all we touch (and not touch) which is not to say that we shouldn't know when to put down the trowel etc... Heck yes, we should ask why it happens, I just find that organic folk sometimes flagellate themselves in the if only the balance was good way when it's just that complex systems sometime work in ways that human minds and hands aren't able to fully comprehend or ameliorate. Hence nature works best on her own but she can be brutal.

More on Ms. Manns - mostly I was referring to her work on field and garden scale no-till. She's worked on wild strips as habitat, mycohrizal stuff and more. I think that she's one (of many, many) unsung pioneers or furtherers in the world of organic gardening and growing. Thank goodness for the internet so that some that have the resources can share. But I'd hate to think she only exists through my blog! Met her at a talk at EcoFarm Day. Admittedly it's not easy to find her papers but here's one study:

www.organicagcentre.ca/Docs/Guelph2008NaturalSciences/SpiderAsControl_manns.pdf

As she lives (used to live?) in the area, I'd think you guys would have a lot to say to each other.

Back to building soil with weeds.

This brings me to a series of blog posts I want to write called: Meditations on Weeding as I do pull, and chop and drop or undercut on occasion. I also use mulch (love mulch!!), cover cropping and more but weeding happens. When caught before seeding, I just toss them back onto the garden bed, otherwise I throw them onto the path so that they can decompose under thicker litter. I play with the idea of leaving some plants in place like dandelions, red clover and dock but generally allow these only in spots as my gardens in part because some are meant as show gardens of particular kinds. However, I am a huge fan of dandelions: so tasty, so productive, such bee and bug magnets.

Should we make a spin off post: soil, spacing and your plant selections?