Shallot Propagation

[Leenstar]

I have a variety of shallot but it quite small. About an inch in diameter. I'd like something bigger that will multiply.

Do shallots grown from seed propagate vegetatively if left in the ground or do they tend to follow the seed-bulb-seed pattern like conventional onions?

[oxbowfarm]

The new seed grown shallots will propagate vegetatively. In the fall of 2011 I planted some red ones from another market vendor and I harvested and replanted them just like a standard shallot. The main difference is that every clump will send up a flower, but they still form the same shallot clump by the end of summer.

They were perfectly hardy in ground all winter, but we had an incredibly mild winter last year. This year has been much colder so we'll see how they survive it.

[ferdzy]

My experience with seed-grown shallots is that they don't divide vegetatively, at least not very much. No doubt it depends which variety you have. I don't know what mine was; I bought a bag of them at the store and planted them before I knew there was such a thing as a seed-grown shallot.

Later I bought Banana shallots (Eschalions) and planted them. They divided a little better; at least they showed much more variation in how much they divided.

The original shallots that I planted produced no seed by themselves, although they did send up a flower. When I planted the Eschalions this summer they then both produced large amounts of seed, somewhat to my surprise. I intend to grow it out and see what happens. When I threshed them out, I found that the original, smaller shallots produced less seed, and that in a few cases it had produced bulbils instead of seeds.

I intend to plant both of these sets of seed this spring and see what happens. I'll be looking for something that divides like a traditional shallot but still produces a reasonable amount of seed. We shall see.

[ferdzy]

An update on my shallot seeds and bulbils: I found 2 good sized bulbils and one small one. The two larger ones have germinated and are growing well; no sign of the small one. Both sets of seed, from my short and tall shallots, have germinated very readily and are growing well. I'm excited and impatient to see what comes out of these!

[galina]

I am used to growing shallots vegetatively and was surprised to find seed for shallot in a swap, intriguingly called 'giant shallot ' and clearly not any of the recent hybrid shallot varieties from seed. They grew from seed and the bulbs were on the large size. After replanting the following year, I only got 3 from each bulb planted. They all had flower stalks, which I removed. The year after that I got five to six split offs and not every one grew a flower stalk.

Looks like they are starting to behave more like vegetatively reproduced shallots now. The individual bulbs are still large, very useful size. Even if they never did produce more than six it would be well worth growing them, but who knows - they might have even more split offs this year.

[ferdzy]

Galina, that's interesting. I would be surprised if your shallots were not related to the Banana Shallots (Eschalions). The ones I planted from the grocery store generally split into 3 as well. I did not keep any to replant. Too bad; maybe they would have gotten into the splitting habit if I had.

I'll be sure to save the best of my seed grow out this year. I also have high hopes for the bulbils - a shallot that could be reproduced from bulbils would be really cool.

[rowan]

I grow my California red onions as multipliers, but only in out of the way spots that I am not using as they only split into about four at a time so are not as productive grown that way, but the resulting onions are full size and they do set seed as well so I still get as many onions as I want.
I have found that many onions can be grown as multipliers with different rates of productivity.

[templeton]

Apr 4, 2013 14:17:58 GMT -5 rowan said:

I grow my California red onions as multipliers, but only in out of the way spots that I am not using as they only split into about four at a time so are not as productive grown that way, but the resulting onions are full size and they do set seed as well so I still get as many onions as I want.
I have found that many onions can be grown as multipliers with different rates of productivity.

I've noted this on my my green bunching onions which went to seed this summer, but have started to produce multiple shoots at their bases in the last few months.
I didn't know that it was a characteristic of bulbing onions like Cal Red.
I've begun to pay more attention to alliums this year - I purchased 3 varieties of shallots in November/December (SH late spring/summer) and have had them hanging in storage ready to plant. When I checked the other day, one variety had completely shriveled.
The variety I planted bulbs of last SH autumn bunched, and went to seed - but only produced very small bulbs. I'm hoping the observation (here? or another forum?) that small shallots produce bigger bulbs holds true.
T

[galina]

Apr 4, 2013 12:18:18 GMT -5 ferdzy said:

Galina, that's interesting. I would be surprised if your shallots were not related to the Banana Shallots (Eschalions). The ones I planted from the grocery store generally split into 3 as well. I did not keep any to replant. Too bad; maybe they would have gotten into the splitting habit if I had.

I'll be sure to save the best of my seed grow out this year. I also have high hopes for the bulbils - a shallot that could be reproduced from bulbils would be really cool.

Yes I was thinking along those lines too. They look very different though, more like Hative de Niort.

Yes, I have seen onions split, but only into two. But as you say,with flower stems and seeds as well, it is still a good deal in a corner of the plot.

There is much conflicting advice about what produces bigger shallots. I replant the biggest from the biggest bunch and (if available) those that have not flowered. As a vegetatively multiplied 'clone' is nearly identical to the bulb it grew from, I prefer to choose large bulbs for propagating and eat the smaller ones.

Shallots keep for a year here, better than onions.

By the way, can anybody explain please the difference between shallot and potato onion?

Ferdzy, did you say bulbils? As in topsetting bulbils, like hardneck garlic bulbils? Cool!

[ferdzy]

Shallots and potato onions are both multiplier onions; i.e. they reproduce by splitting and have not traditionally produced seed. The name shallots applies to specific French varieties, but essentially they are variations on the same thing.

Yes, Galina; bulbils! There were only 3, and only 2 have grown but they are doing well. Short (hybrid) shallots, that did not make any seed until I also planted the Banana shallots, produced them. They produced about half as much seed per head as the Banana shallots, so in that way much less fertile; however the seed has all germinated and is growing very well. I did not find the bulbils until I was cleaning the seed (did not know I should be looking for any!) so I don't know if they were all from one plant or not. Whichever, they would have been produced as if they were seeds, I think; that is, up in the flower part. And of course, it remains to be seen if they will produce bulbils in turn, when they are sufficiently mature. Which will likely be next year at the very earliest...

Templeton, your bunching onions are probably Welsh onions, which are a perennial onion and do indeed split if left in the ground. As for the shallots, the fact that nearly all the ones for sale now are actually onion/shallot hybrids is going to make for some interesting genetic possibilities, I think... at least I certainly hope so!

[oxbowfarm]

I'm beginning to suspect that there is less difference than similarity between seed grown onions, seed grown shallots, potato onions, and vegetatively propagated shallots. With the exception of the Griselle/French Grey which is Allium oschaninii, they are all Allium cepa and fully interfertile. To my palate, a shallot is a potato onion plus a lot of hype.

I also suspect that the primary difference between shallots/potato onions and the rest of the seed grown members of Allium cepa is a bunch of viral build-up and chromosome damage to the fertility mechanisms. Very similar to what happened with garlic. I'm planning on testing this theory by attempting to perennialize some storage onions. Extreme Gardener just gave me some "Yellow Rock" seed which she says already has a tendency to perennialize.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I've had a perennial patch of "Utah Yellow Spanish Onions" growing in my garden for about 3 years. I had originally planted it as a seed crop. It's an an area of the field that I've since set aside as a perennial bed, so I haven't been tilling it.

My onion seed patch from last year got tilled under in the fall. There is a heck of a volunteer onion weed problem there this spring. I'm still toying with whether I should let them produce seed again, or if I should eat them.

[ferdzy]

What's the difference between an onion that has perennialized and one you just haven't dug up? Serious question. Any I've ever missed digging up have reliably reappeared next year. At which point I dig 'em up... but presumably I could just leave them there.

[oxbowfarm]

Nothing? My question is what the difference is between a shallot and an onion that you let perennialize? I suspect it's more or less...nothing.

[ferdzy]

Well shallots and onions do have quite different flavours. But there are more shalloty-flavoured onions, like Amish Bottle (? I think? I only grew it once.)

I have never grown potato onions, so I don't know what they taste like. I was assuming they taste more like shallots than like onions, but I really don't know.