What's the difference, pole bean vs. runner bean

[mickey]

I tried to look it up but due to my eyesight, no luck. So I thought I would ask here as this is the only garden site I visit.

[caledonian]

Pole beans are examples of Phaseolus vulgaris, the common bean, that don't limit their grown the way dwarf "bush" beans do. Runner beans are a different species, Phaseolus coccineus; they have their own pole and bush varieties.

Pole beans are a category of any kind of bean with a particular growth pattern. Runner beans are particular species of bean.

[blueadzuki]

Can you just clarify the pole/bush defintion a little, calcedonian. I always though it was a function of growth habit, not duration i.e that which a bean was defined as was determined by whether it was a vine that needed something to climb over or around (pole) versus bush being one that stood upright and needed no climbing medium (support maybe, but nothing to actually attach itself to) with semi-bush somewhere in between. But you seem to be defining it by whether the plant is determinate or indeterminate. So it sound like under those defintions, a bean that climbed but stopped growing quicky would be counted as "bush" wheras an upright bean that kept growing continually would be counted as "pole".

[oxbowfarm]

While in the garden world we talk about bush and pole beans, in the bean breeding world they recognize four different growth habits in common beans P vulgaris . determinate (Type I), indeterminate small vine (Type II), indeterminate large vine (Type III), and indeterminate climbing (Type IV). I suspect that cornfield beans like Octarora are Type III or even Type II, where lots of heirloom pole beans are full Type IV.

Runnerbeans are a different species Phaseolus coccineus

[steev]

There are bush P. coccineus? Are they still potentially perennial, forming tubers?

[12540dumont]

Yes. P. Coccineus are runner beans. It differs from the common bean (P. vulgaris) in several respects: the cotyledons stay in the ground during germination, and the plant is a perennial vine with tuberous roots (though it is usually treated as an annual). Also, runner beans twine clockwise when viewed from above, whereas most other kinds of beans twine counterclockwise.

Even if you are in Oz.

[raymondo]

Must say I've never noticed the twining, but then I've never looked.

[galina]

Feb 25, 2013 5:45:53 GMT -5 raymondo said:

Must say I've never noticed the twining, but then I've never looked.

My coccineus and vulgaris twine the same way and always have. We have been talking about this on another forum and I have been observing them for years, because the books say they twine differently.

In the UK we have Runnerbeans which are ph coccineus and these are mostly tall. There are a few short (dwarf) runnerbeans, like Hestia for example that don't need supports. We also have French Beans, ph vulgaris and they are either climbing French beans or dwarf French beans depending on whether they need a support to climb up or not.

Beans described as 'Halfrunners' give us problems in the UK, understanding what is meant - we naturally assume they are ph coccineus, but they are French beans (vulgaris). The other problem for us to understand is the concept that a bean can be this sort of inbetween dwarf and climbing. I had a problem explaining to an experienced gardener at a Seed Swap table, why Mountaineer White Halfrunner should go with the Climbing French Beans. That has taught me to put the Latin name on my packets in future!

In the USA terms are different and we generally understand what is meant - for example that polebean can mean either species and possibly even a tall growing Lima bean. I think there is a greater need to explain UK terms to our friends overseas, in case something we write has them puzzled.

What bean terms are in use in Canada and Australia/New Zealand?

[templeton]

Galina,
confusion reigns here (Aust.) but there might be regional differences as well.

P.coccineus in my experience are called runners - I've only ever seen Scarlet Runner , but other varieties might be around - I haven't looked. These are also sometimes known as 7 year beans, and can be grown as perennials pretty easily where I've gardened.

P.vulgaris are variously labelled as bush beans (short) or climbing beans (=US pole beans), depending on habit although the term French Bean is often used for the bush Beans.
Butter Bean seems to refer to yellow podded non-climbing P.vulgaris.

There isn't much of a culture of dry or shelly bean growing in Aust.
Main varieties that I can recall from the seed stands are Blue Lake, Westralia, Epicure, Purple King, and more recently Kentucky Wonder, Lazy Housewife and Rattlesnake from the specialty suppliers. The big seed houses often just supply generic bean seed packets, either climbing or bush.

Raymondo, who has a passion for beans, will hopefully be able to correct my errors and omissions.

[steev]

It's my understanding that what are known in the US as "pole" beans are known in Australia as "hole" beans, due to their growth habit.

[galina]

;D

Feb 25, 2013 22:38:36 GMT -5 steev said:

It's my understanding that what are known in the US as "pole" beans are known in Australia as "hole" beans, due to their growth habit.

[richardw]

P vulgaris had been known as simply as climbers and butter beans here,unfortunately it seems that most people refer to P.coccineus & vulgaris as climbing bean while not realizing they are separate different species.

That twining aspect i didnt know of,so i just have to run outside and look,back soon......................yes my vulgaris are counterclockwise

[blueadzuki]

Just to make things even more confusing, in a lot of places "butter beans" is used as the term for lima beans (especially small seeded ones, like the sieva types) which are yet a third species P. lunatus.
And once you leave the Phaseolus genus, all kinds of odd things can show up. My climbing black soybeans (in themeselves a rather odd thing, nearly all soybean cultivars grown are stickly bush (climbing is a primitive trait, from the wild ancestor, which was a vine) might be best described as "conditional climbers" in that they will climb if provided with something to grasp onto, but if not will form a (very small) upright plant as opposed to scrabling along the ground (actually that statement is a little inaccurate, the stuff in the bags I play around with has a whole assortment of growing systems (it's just as diverse there as with most other traits) some are full on climbers, some are full on upright some are in between, and quite a few seem to have gotten the worst of both sides (i.e. they grow stems to thin to support themselves upright, but seem to also lack the ability to climb, so the just sort of fall over as seedlings if left to thier own devices and squiggle along the ground.
Then there are my rice beans which seem to alter growth habit at different stages. The normal rice bean is a type IV plant (a climbing indeterminate vine. The kind I can get to is a type 1, usually some stay type 1 developing a upright bushy habit and a lot of branches. Some however will be type 1 while they are vegitative, but when the flower buds show up, the stems with the buds begin to climb as vines (in otherwords you have vines coming out of a bottom that is an upright) I think it may be season/temperature based (the ones that flower first tend to get the extended buds, later ones stay upright the whole time.)