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Post by richardw on Apr 3, 2013 23:43:36 GMT -5
Ive tried doing a search but nothing comes up on Pean beans,someone today me that me that pean beans are a cross with a pea,is this right??
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Apr 4, 2013 3:09:20 GMT -5
As far as I can tell, "peans" originate as failed Chinese translations into English. So we get things like: "Pean and Bean Netting" ==> Pea and Bean Netting "Pean Nuts" ==> pine-nuts or peanuts. "Indian Peans" ==> Garbanzo beans "Green Peans" ==> Green shelling peas, or green beans. "Pean apple" ==> Pineapple Pean also occurs as failed OCR attempts when a garbled "Bean" is read as "Pean" A New Zealand company claims to be selling " pean seeds", but then links to a blog refuting the claim. |
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Post by richardw on Apr 4, 2013 3:17:23 GMT -5
Thanks Joseph,that link pretty much backs what i thought about crossing a pea with a bean.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Apr 4, 2013 3:30:43 GMT -5
But the article only quoted a "botanist". I don't know if we can really consider the issue resolved unless the word comes down from a "Senior Botanist". ;D
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Apr 4, 2013 4:14:45 GMT -5
That 'pean' looks just like a Phaseolus vulgaris to me.
I've noticed that the word 'pea' is used more loosely in English than our word 'erwt' in dutch, that is only used for Pisum sativum seeds (and Lathyrus) while small round Vigna beans are called peas too in English (like black-eyes peas or cowpeas)
I don't think Pisum peas and Phaseolus beans can be crossed, but maybe with the sloppy terminology in the Vigna genus a cross between a 'pea' and a 'bean' would be possible in english-speaking places? Or maybe not, since 'peas' is used for round seeds and beans for more oblong seeds, so the seed form would in the end make it either peas of beans again...
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Post by oxbowfarm on Apr 4, 2013 5:26:12 GMT -5
I think navy beans were also often referred to as navy peas at one time in the New England area. It was always a plain P. vulgaris.
I suspect that at certain times and regions of the English speaking world "pea" has merely meant "small legume" with no strong link to the genus Pisum. This wouldn't happen if we'd all just switch to Esperanto! But the poetry would be much more boring.
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 4, 2013 7:28:35 GMT -5
That 'pean' looks just like a Phaseolus vulgaris to me. I've noticed that the word 'pea' is used more loosely in English than our word 'erwt' in dutch, that is only used for Pisum sativum seeds (and Lathyrus) while small round Vigna beans are called peas too in English (like black-eyes peas or cowpeas) I don't think Pisum peas and Phaseolus beans can be crossed, but maybe with the sloppy terminology in the Vigna genus a cross between a 'pea' and a 'bean' would be possible in english-speaking places? Or maybe not, since 'peas' is used for round seeds and beans for more oblong seeds, so the seed form would in the end make it either peas of beans again... In theory yes, provided the "bean" in question was something like and Adzuki or Mung Bean; a fellow member of the Vigna's. In practice, no. While still in the same genus (or, since Vigna has more or less been absorbed into Phaseolus, the same subgenus), there's a pretty big gentic split in the family. The "little beans" (adzuki,mung,urd,mothe,rice) are on one side the cowpea is on the other. I don't think crosses are possible between them. I undestand that crosses between the little beans are possible (given it atypical growth pattens, I suspect that the super short season rice beans I play around with each year have some adzuki DNA in them somewhere) But across the line, no. To make matters even more confused, you could add in Vigna subterrenea, the Bamabarra ground nut which I suppose could lead someone to imagine a bean-pea cross on the grounds that "groundnut" and "peanut" are usually taken as synonyms (I have never heard of them referred to as "Bambarra peanuts" but it would not suprise me if someone did) but again, while V. subterrenea is on the same side of the aforementioned divide as the cowpea it still probably isn't close enough to make the cross sucessfully (If it was, I sort of suppose someone would have tried to do it already, to attemp a ampicarpic offspring (on that could produce seed both above AND BELOW the ground) The only "bean-pea" cross I can think of that might be possible would be crossing V.ungiculata (the cowpea) with V. ungiculata var sesqipidale (the yard-long bean or asparagus bean) Since the latter is simply a subspecies or even variety of the former, I imagine crosses are possible. Though as you said the crosses would likey be assigned to one or the other side. The explanation of the name confusion reminds me of something else that always bothered me a little. In that documentary movie (I forget the name, but it's the one about the guy going to look for wild chickpea plants for the gene ark in Svablad) near the end the man distributes some seed to a farmer in the Middle east. The Narrator says these are chickpeas but it is pretty clear that what is being given him are grasspeas (the wedge shape is quite obvios) leading me to some questions as to what exactly the guy had been looking for in the first place. I think what may have happened is that someone saw that L. Sativus is called either Grasspea or Chickling vetch, so someone started calling it "Chick pea"and the confusion arose. |
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Post by galina on Apr 4, 2013 11:35:18 GMT -5
You don't mean Pea Beans? contraction to peans?
Pea Beans are purple and white seeded ying/yan types, like 'monastic coco' and a few other varieties.
The Australian source refers to a blog, which then talks about Pea Beans and the pods in the photo look like pea beans to me - shortish pods, lumpy looking.
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Apr 4, 2013 13:32:12 GMT -5
I was thinking about a cross between those yardlong thingies and cowpeas, but I suppose they would just be beans...
Forgot about chickpeas. We call them 'kikkererwten' (frog peas) which is like chickpea derived from the latin 'cicer' (after which Cicero was named) but in Dutch it gives another animal than in English. Don't think they would cross with any beans either. Neither would the asparagus pea (Lotus tetragonolobus) I suppose...
A purple/white ying-yang bean called 'Monastic coco'? Cool... Want one...Would be a good name for a psychedelic rock band too....
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Post by galina on Apr 4, 2013 13:56:09 GMT -5
I was thinking about a cross between those yardlong thingies and cowpeas, but I suppose they would just be beans... ............................................ A purple/white ying-yang bean called 'Monastic coco'? Cool... Want one...Would be a good name for a psychedelic rock band too.... Yardlongs and cowpeas are the same species - no need to cross them unless you want to create a new variety. Here is a picture of Monastic Coco from the 'Linear Legume' blog: linearlegume.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/bean-project-monastic-coco.htmlI have a few seeds I can send you - pm me if you would like some. Apparently they came from a monastery and 'coco beans' are shelling beans, although these are not bad as green beans either. Yep good name for a rock band  |
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 4, 2013 15:34:34 GMT -5
I was thinking about a cross between those yardlong thingies and cowpeas, but I suppose they would just be beans... ............................................ A purple/white ying-yang bean called 'Monastic coco'? Cool... Want one...Would be a good name for a psychedelic rock band too.... Yardlongs and cowpeas are the same species - no need to cross them unless you want to create a new variety. Here is a picture of Monastic Coco from the 'Linear Legume' blog: linearlegume.blogspot.co.uk/2010/02/bean-project-monastic-coco.htmlI have a few seeds I can send you - pm me if you would like some. Apparently they came from a monastery and 'coco beans' are shelling beans, although these are not bad as green beans either. Yep good name for a rock band Crossing the two usually isn't worth it even if you DO want to create a new variety. Most of the yardlongs have pods that are a bit narrower in diamenter than the "short" cowpeas (I have a yardlong that does have very thick (and strangely rugose) pods but it is the exception, not the ruule), so when the two cross you tend to wind up with a bean that has the skinny pod of a yardlong and the shortish pod of a normal. OK if you want dried seed to use for cooking but not much else. I have also heard that there can be an issue with the seed. Yardlongs are subspeciated enoght that they actually have distinct seed traits, they are a lot longer and more curvy than the seed of normal ones (sort of like the difference in shape between kidney beans and navy beans in shape). So when they cross you sometimes get beans whose seeds are long without the curve (which tend to be a bit brittle and can break in half if you're not careful or curved without the length (which can result in seed so curved it's really more of folded and has trouble germinating (since the emerging radicle crashes into the rest of the seed before it has enough length to turn.) |
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Apr 6, 2013 2:22:08 GMT -5
What's up with the name 'Phaseolus aegypticus' that sometimes turns up for those purple ying-yang pea beans?
Aren't they just P. vullgaris?
Is it a legitimate name? I thought Phaseolus was a New World genus?
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 6, 2013 5:54:04 GMT -5
It is and it isn't. All of the "classical" Phaseolus's are New World plants. However a some years ago some taxonomists, trying to reduce the number of genera, tried to "shoehorn" pretty much all of the edible beans into the Phaseolus genus, or why you'll see names like Phaseolus radiatus (syn. Vigna radiata) Phaseolus calicartus (Vigna umbilliferata) and so on. But in the case of the beans I think you are right they are just vulgaris (though for all I know there may be such a think as a subspecies of vulgaris called aegypticus). Also does anyone know if they actually ARE from Egypt?
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Post by 12540dumont on Apr 8, 2013 12:51:14 GMT -5
Are all Phaseolus really edible?
For example, Phaseolus angustissimus. The only literature I can find on the Slim Leaf Lima, is that it is perennial and the leaves are used as an herb...dried, powdered and rubbed on children for strengthening.
But what about the bean?
Greek phaselos means a little boat or a light boat referring to its likeness to a bean-pod. Latin phaselus (phasellus and faselus) for a kind of bean with an edible pod. So boating or eating?
(CRC World Dictionary of Plant Names: Common Names, Scientific Names, Eponyms, Synonyms, and Etymology; Volume I (A-C), Volume II (D-L), ... CRC Press, 2000 NW Corporate Boulevard, Boca Raton, FL 33431) Wish my library had this!
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 8, 2013 15:05:14 GMT -5
Are all Phaseolus really edible? For example, Phaseolus angustissimus. The only literature I can find on the Slim Leaf Lima, is that it is perennial and the leaves are used as an herb...dried, powdered and rubbed on children for strengthening. But what about the bean? Greek phaselos means a little boat or a light boat referring to its likeness to a bean-pod. Latin phaselus (phasellus and faselus) for a kind of bean with an edible pod. So boating or eating? (CRC World Dictionary of Plant Names: Common Names, Scientific Names, Eponyms, Synonyms, and Etymology; Volume I (A-C), Volume II (D-L), ... CRC Press, 2000 NW Corporate Boulevard, Boca Raton, FL 33431) Wish my library had this! I did not say that all memebers of the Phaseolus geneus were edible, merely that some taxonomists tried to lump pretty much all of the genera of beans that are used for food into the genus, for one reason or another. It is just the way of taxonomists, some are "splitters" (dividing life up into as many seperate groups as possible) some are "lumpers" (trying to cram it into as few as possible) and every shade in between. And legumes are probably one of the most contentios areas of all. From those who want to divide the Fabacae in three by elevating the three sub families (Ceaspilodae,Mimosoidae, and Papillodae) to full family status (or why you'll sometimes see words like Papillacae) to "orphan" species that flitter back and forth between genera practically every year (for example Samanea Saman the "rain tree" or monkey pod (a common ornamental tree in tropical gardens and familar to anyone who ever saw the Disney version of Swiss Family Robinson) has over the years be shuttled into pretty much every genus in the Mimosoids there is (at various times it was listed and an Acacia, an Albizia, a Pitecellobium etc.) Taxonomy is simply a very confusing place. |
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