persimmons

[richardw]

Ive been given 12 seeds but have no idea what's the best way to germinate them,anyone had experience in the department

[khoomeizhi]

they like stratification. planting them in big pots that get left out all winter works for me every time.

oh, i should note, this is for american persimmon. i don't have experience with the asian ones. one of my reference books say D. kaki has no strong dormancy issues. don't know if they like getting frozen a bit too, though. i say just plant 'em.

[mayz]

D kaki is a subtropical tree thus stratification is unnecessary.

D virginiana needs stratification according to litterature. But my last sowing germinated fairly well without any stratification.

[richardw]

The seed is of the oriental persimmon which is Diospyros kaki,so ive just found out,ok so if you reckon they shouldn't need stratification i wonder if been mid winter here i should wait till spring before sowing them or start them off now in the tunnelhouse ...............might try 6 seeds now and the rest spring.

[raymondo]

Growing persimmons from seed in NZ: www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMekH26R16Q

He doesn't say when he started them but my guess is late winter because of the video publishing date.

[Drahkk]

Does anyone know how long they take to set fruit, and whether or not they require a second tree to pollinate? I have a nursery bought Oriental persimmon that is now over 10' tall and has never set fruit. The past two years I've seen what looks like tiny pale yellow blooms, but so far they've done nothing.

MB

[raymondo]

Not sure drahkk. I had a cultivar called 'Ichikikei Jiro' which was self-fertile but perhaps not all of them are.

[mayz]

a lot of informations in this pdf

[Drahkk]

Tree sexuality. Based on the flowering habit of the individual cultivar, Professor Hume (1914 p 404) of Florida designated three classes: (1) Staminate Constants - monoecious trees which bear staminate flowers and do so regularly every time the tree blooms, (2) Staminate Sporadics - monoecious trees which produce staminate flowers one season and not another, in fact are very irregular in this particular, (3) Pistillate Constants - dioecious trees which produce only pistillate flowers. The dioecious male was not mentioned. It is . . . impossible to determine the flowering habit of any variety until it has been under observation for a number of years (Ibid. p 406).

Staminate Sporadic would include the light male flowering that sometimes occurs in Fuyugaki (Miller 1984 p 343).

In general, kaki plants show many types of sexual expression. Most of the important cultivars . . . are dioecious and differentiate female flowers. Fuyu and Jiro need pollinators because of their low parthenocarpic ability . . . some are monoecious, and set both female flowers and male flowers. These are used as pollinators. Trimonoecious cultivars [we assume this means cultivars which set male flowers, female flowers, and perfect flowers] are also recorded, such as Shogatsu, Meotogaki, and Ama-Yotsumizo . . . Androdioecious seedlings are also found which set male flowers and perfect flowers (Kajiura 1982 in G&G p 128).

Parthenocarpy is the production (without fertilization) of seedless fruit, which apparently is of no benefit to the plant in the wild. It is exploited by man. There are varieties that have a strong parthenogenic tendency, e.g., Hachiya, Tanenashi, Triumph. The cultivar Fuyu will set a crop of parthenocarpic fruit, but will set a heavier crop if pollinated. There are some cultivars that have little or no natural tendency for parthenocarpy. These must have a pollinator in order to set a crop. Hiratanenashi sets few seed even if pollinated.

Thanks, mayz. Hmmm. It looks like different varieties exhibit all different variations of sexual status. The problem now is that the tree I have was not labeled with a variety name; all the tag said was "Oriental Persimmon." Guess I'll just have to keep waiting and watching, and see what happens.

MB

[blueadzuki]

Jul 17, 2013 13:33:51 GMT -5 Drahkk said:

Tree sexuality. Based on the flowering habit of the individual cultivar, Professor Hume (1914 p 404) of Florida designated three classes: (1) Staminate Constants - monoecious trees which bear staminate flowers and do so regularly every time the tree blooms, (2) Staminate Sporadics - monoecious trees which produce staminate flowers one season and not another, in fact are very irregular in this particular, (3) Pistillate Constants - dioecious trees which produce only pistillate flowers. The dioecious male was not mentioned. It is . . . impossible to determine the flowering habit of any variety until it has been under observation for a number of years (Ibid. p 406).

Staminate Sporadic would include the light male flowering that sometimes occurs in Fuyugaki (Miller 1984 p 343).

In general, kaki plants show many types of sexual expression. Most of the important cultivars . . . are dioecious and differentiate female flowers. Fuyu and Jiro need pollinators because of their low parthenocarpic ability . . . some are monoecious, and set both female flowers and male flowers. These are used as pollinators. Trimonoecious cultivars [we assume this means cultivars which set male flowers, female flowers, and perfect flowers] are also recorded, such as Shogatsu, Meotogaki, and Ama-Yotsumizo . . . Androdioecious seedlings are also found which set male flowers and perfect flowers (Kajiura 1982 in G&G p 128).

Parthenocarpy is the production (without fertilization) of seedless fruit, which apparently is of no benefit to the plant in the wild. It is exploited by man. There are varieties that have a strong parthenogenic tendency, e.g., Hachiya, Tanenashi, Triumph. The cultivar Fuyu will set a crop of parthenocarpic fruit, but will set a heavier crop if pollinated. There are some cultivars that have little or no natural tendency for parthenocarpy. These must have a pollinator in order to set a crop. Hiratanenashi sets few seed even if pollinated.

Thanks, mayz. Hmmm. It looks like different varieties exhibit all different variations of sexual status. The problem now is that the tree I have was not labeled with a variety name; all the tag said was "Oriental Persimmon." Guess I'll just have to keep waiting and watching, and see what happens.

MB

I guess this also puts the final nail in the coffin of the cockamamie plan I came up with back when I was a kid. I was going to try and cross Diospryros vinginiana with D. ebenum or D. ebenaster; create an ebony tree that could grow in a temperate climate, and rule the ornamental hardwood industry. Not that the plan was going anywhere (for one thing, it's very hard to get seeds or live cuttings of ebony; even the seed companies that specialize in tropical trees usually don't have it. )

[richardw]

Jul 16, 2013 0:10:43 GMT -5 raymondo said:

Growing persimmons from seed in NZ: www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMekH26R16Q

He doesn't say when he started them but my guess is late winter because of the video publishing date.

Thanks Ray,the seeds in that video looked a lot fatter than the ones i was given, so that may mean they probably wont grow,dam.

[ottawagardener]

Things I discovered. American persimmon seedlings like a constant supply of water... still have some!

[farmermike]

I got these persimmons from a woman in the hills of Martinez who has a nice orchard and sells them out of her garage for a few weeks a year. She planted the trees 40 years ago. I hope that I get enjoy the trees I'm planting now--in 40 years.

The little ones in the front have seeds, but the medium sized are parthenocarpic. I think the little ones taste better, but that may just be the joy I get from finding the seeds. I'm assuming they are all D. kaki. The big one on the left is "Giant Fuyu". I'm going to try growing the seeds in the spring. I'm guessing it will take 10 years before those fruit, maybe less if I graft them onto something else.

I'm also looking for more seeds--if anyone has extras!

Mike

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Dec 7, 2015 19:47:47 GMT -5 farmermike said:

I got these persimmons from a woman in the hills of Martinez who has a nice orchard and sells them out of her garage for a few weeks a year. She planted the trees 40 years ago. I hope that I get enjoy the trees I'm planting now--in 40 years.

The little ones in the front have seeds, but the medium sized are parthenocarpic. I think the little ones taste better, but that may just be the joy I get from finding the seeds. I'm assuming they are all D. kaki. The big one on the left is "Giant Fuyu". I'm going to try growing the seeds in the spring. I'm guessing it will take 10 years before those fruit, maybe less if I graft them onto something else.

I'm also looking for more seeds--if anyone has extras!

Mike

wow! nice pics! ...so that's what persimmon seeds look like?! I've never found hard or dark seeds whenever I've eaten them. Either bought from a store or handpicked in California. I was beginning to think the seeds were clear and watery.

[richardw]

Well done Mike getting seed. Those smaller ones look so much like some i found in an organic store a year ago, not sure what variety they were but obviously were an open pollinate varieties which i'm after more seeds of, from these i got about 12 seeds, these were then sowed in March(autumn)and spent the winter in my tunnelhouse before only three managing to germinate in spring.
I think if you are wanting a good number of persimmons trees it may take a good number of seeds. I'm wanting at least 20 trees so the next 12 months will be about hunting out more seeds yet.