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Post by farmermike on Dec 8, 2015 2:06:53 GMT -5
Yeah, they have beautiful curvy brown seeds.  I accidentally sliced one in half there. Those are fully ripe, but I guess they're still kind of soft until they have a chance to dry out a bit. I got about 20 seeds from this batch. I will try to go back and get more from the same place next weekend, and hopefully she can direct me to the varieties that have seeds. She has both the astringent and non-astringent type, but I'm more partial to the "non". Richard, I glad to hear that you've had a few germinate. I'm hoping for quite a few trees too. In the mean time, though, I may break down and buy a couple trees from a local nursery. I may also try to get some cuttings to graft from the CRFG Scion Exchange. |
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Post by DarJones on Dec 29, 2015 6:14:59 GMT -5
In the also interesting department, crosses have been successfully made between D. Virginiana and D. Kaki. I have not checked on them in several years, but Jerry Lehman has several growing. You can contact him through Northern Nut Growers or you may be able to call him at the listing on this page. www.persimmonpudding.com/sources.htmlI have read that if you slice a persimmon seed in half correctly, a cross will be visible in the center. |
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Post by richardw on Dec 29, 2015 12:17:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure there would be anything to gain by crossing Diospyros. Virginiana and D. Kaki because of D Virginana being a smaller fruit, but then again hybridizing can produce surprises.
They are good looking seeds there Mike.
One thing i would like to know is how frost tender are the mature trees in spring, my one year old seedling was hit badly in November and took ages to regrow leaves
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Post by DarJones on Dec 29, 2015 17:48:01 GMT -5
D. Kaki is not very hardy growing best in zones 8 to 11. D. Virginiana has two subtypes, one with 66 chromosomes, the other with 99. The best I recall, the 66 chromosome type is common south of Kentucky and the 99 chromosome type is further north from Kentucky. Please check, I did not delve into this in detail.
The advantage of crossing D. Kaki X D. Virginiana is to produce a large fruited winter hardy persimmon. The first viable hybrids were all small fruited. The F2's should show a few with large fruit. I have not checked progress with the breeding program in about 10 years so it would be best to call someone who is familiar with the details.
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Post by philagardener on Dec 29, 2015 19:47:48 GMT -5
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Post by copse on Dec 30, 2015 19:30:59 GMT -5
I was given some persimmons which someone had placed outside their gate for people to help themselves, up north of Auckland. Considering they sell for 1$NZ a piece in the local supermarkets here in the South Island, it's interesting to me people just seem to give them away and do not eat them themselves up there. Out of these I got perhaps two seeds, which I stratified in the fridge over winter in bags of mildly damp spent potting mix.  After they outgrew the pots, I planted them out in bags of what looks like more of the spent potting mix, and they sat at the north end of the house neglected and unwatered. I discovered them in spring, re-leafing I think.  Persimmon trees are quite expensive here, I think I bought my two Fuyu out in the orchard from Bunnings and they might have been about 30-40$NZ a pop. Both have been in the ground perhaps 3 years and neither have flowered. Reading in the treecropper periodical how others (nearer your way richardw if I recall correctly) have attempted them multiple times and not staked/supported them, and regretted it when winds have terminated the trees, mine are. |
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Post by richardw on Dec 30, 2015 20:53:35 GMT -5
They are looking good, also if you are in CHCH anytime call into Christchurch Piko Wholefoods they have open pollinate persimmon fruit for sale (in season ), thats where i got the seed to grow the seedlings ive got going atm.
Is that a pear next to the two persimmons
The persimmon tree sound like its rather brittle, makes me wonder how it will handle deep snow,if they are anything like Loquats i may as well give up now.
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Post by richardw on Dec 30, 2015 21:13:00 GMT -5
Can any one from North America tell is there any differences in taste between D. kaki and Virginiana, as far as i know D.Virginiana is not in NZ, i see on the MPI plants biosecurity index that we are allowed to import Diospyros seeds, could be worth trying both to see how they handle this climate
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Post by khoomeizhi on Dec 30, 2015 21:39:04 GMT -5
no huge difference in taste to me in general, species to species - though i haven't had more than 6 or 7 asian varieties.
the best persimmon i've had, hands down, has been american. like butterscotch magic.
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Post by castanea on Dec 30, 2015 23:44:03 GMT -5
Can any one from North America tell is there any differences in taste between D. kaki and Virginiana, as far as i know D.Virginiana is not in NZ, i see on the MPI plants biosecurity index that we are allowed to import Diospyros seeds, could be worth trying both to see how they handle this climate My problem in evaluating the taste is that I prefer persimmons that can be eaten while hard and Virginiana cannot be eaten while hard. Comparing soft Virginiana with soft kaki varieties is interesting. Generally Virginiana has more flavor but the flavor is not always better. The soft kaki varieties have simpler flavors but they are often better. |
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Post by DarJones on Dec 31, 2015 2:23:51 GMT -5
Kaki is tropical to sub-tropical which means it is not generally adapted to areas that regularly get below freezing. The North American versions can handle temps to -30 and regularly get heavy snow. If you are interested in looking at some of the varieties available here in the U.S., check out Nolin Nursery. nolinnursery.com/Persimon.htm Early Golden is pretty much a standard cultivar though there are several that are rated as better flavored or have other desirable traits. |
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Post by steev on Dec 31, 2015 4:17:27 GMT -5
For my farm, P kaki are like English walnuts: they won't survive their youth without more hands-on care than I can currently give them; I've killed ~6 of each; it's my farm's temperature whipsaw that does them in: repeated sproutings getting frost-killed.
Since I greatly value both walnuts and persimmons, I will continue to spit into the wind, expecting to eventually succeed in not spotting my shirt; I will keep bare-root trees potted for a year to have them ready to plant in Fall, rain permitting! In any event, it looks like global climate change may be solving my problems in this, cold-wise.
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Post by khoomeizhi on Dec 31, 2015 5:51:41 GMT -5
If you are interested in looking at some of the varieties available here in the U.S., check out Nolin Nursery. nolinnursery.com/Persimon.htm Early Golden is pretty much a standard cultivar though there are several that are rated as better flavored or have other desirable traits. you could also contact and talk to cliff england. he's got a huge number of both species - including the most kaki varieties the farthest north i know (doing well enough that last i heard he was planning on planting out production orchards), in kentucky. usually willing to give recommendations. www.nuttrees.net/ |
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Post by reed on Dec 31, 2015 7:46:45 GMT -5
Can any one from North America tell is there any differences in taste between D. kaki and Virginiana, as far as i know D.Virginiana is not in NZ, i see on the MPI plants biosecurity index that we are allowed to import Diospyros seeds, could be worth trying both to see how they handle this climate I don't really know how to describe flavor. I guess our wild persimmons here in Southern Indiana, US are the Virginiana. They have a large range in size and are terrible until they have been frosted good a couple times and then they are great. The ones that hang on the trees until they start to dry up are best. Like gooey sweet candy. My granny made fantastic jelly from them. I bought some large almost tennis ball sized ones one time that I guess must have been D. kaki. In comparison they were watery, tasteless, persimmon wanta be's, even though they were big and pretty. (they did not have seeds) |
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Post by richardw on Dec 31, 2015 12:49:30 GMT -5
Thanks for your feedback guys, i'll email Nolin Nursery and England's Orchard and Nursery and see if i can buy seed from a few different types of D.Virginiana,
My problem here is not so much the winters where its not that cold that D.kaki wont survive, its those hard late spring frosts that i feel will be too much for them, yes the young leaves will grow back but how does that effect flowering?
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