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Post by cletus on Feb 23, 2014 18:06:34 GMT -5
I do not agree with cell fusion CMS or protoplast fusion, but its amazing how flexible and tenacious life is. That you can dissolve the cell wall, do protoplast fusion, and the cell will work it out and grow a new cell wall eventually. If I understood the talk correctly, some cell fusion CMS may also involve fusion of the nuclear genomes, but usually doesn't? But what if it is possible to use naturally occurring methods to transfer characteristics horizontally? I don't mean like saying horizontal gene transfer happens in nature so therefore a given transgenic lab technique is also naturally kosher. What if Michurin is right and its possible to transmit characteristics horizontally through combinations of hybridization and grafting. Maybe it makes sense for some people to say that they are okay with naturally occurring polyploids but not with humans chemically inducing polyploids, but I think its probably harder to say you are against any human made combination of plant hybridization and grafting where there is horizontal transmission. If this were the case I think you would increasingly find yourself backed into logical corner the more we confirm different modes of evolution and horizontal transference. On some level, a cell fusion, or symbiogenic event had to occur for plant cells to exist with their 3 different sets of genetic material. Like I said though, I don't support either the end or means of cell fusion CMS. But I do think we should try to break down our categories so as to build them up on a new light, and I think, to some degree, the scientific data forces us to. For each person they will have to consider where they fall on the spectrum after they consider the method, the end result, and to what degree they feel its natural. Have you all heard of the patent on the human-pig protoplast fusion hybrid? Stuart Newman filed for such a patent to draw focus on the ethical issues of protoplast fusion. www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/science-july-dec05-chimeras_newman-ext/ |
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 24, 2014 9:33:06 GMT -5
stillandrew and trixtrax, when you guys say total sterility do you mean female sterile as well? It won't set seed even if there is donor B. rapa pollen available? Talking Hakurei turnips here, of course.
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Post by stillandrew on Feb 24, 2014 16:05:39 GMT -5
oxbowfarm trixtrax In the case of Hakurei the flowers have no stamens and no pollen. They are female fertile I believe. There are usually a few plants in a natural CMS F1 that are fertile and carry fertility restorer genes. But not in cell fusion CMS. The problem is that restoring fertility is probably impossible. Crossing in pollen from a fertile male parent would probably create just another male sterile hybrid. Theoretically it may be possible to use hakurei as a parent line for future hybrids but it would be impossible to select it out into an OP version because there are no restorer genes in the mother line. In addition there might be issues resulting in using a parent (hakurei) that is rich in heterozygosity for a new F1. I don't know enough about creating F1 with male sterility to be sure.
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Post by trixtrax on Feb 24, 2014 17:24:23 GMT -5
stillandrew, oxbowfarm. The problem of cybrids is that the genetic line now propagates an invalid mitochondria and since this passes along the mother line, this variety and anything that is descended from it will be genetically polluted and damaged. It truly is a dead-end. Allowing this damaged germplasm to proliferate into crop seed, which is now a sure inevitability, is dangerous and becomes a vehicle for a corporate take of humanities commons.
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Post by philagardener on Feb 24, 2014 21:02:48 GMT -5
Interesting thread!
If I follow this correctly, someone used cell fusion to generate a male sterile plant (i.e. female fertile, the male sterility emerging from cytoplasmic incompatibility between the nuclear and "new" mitochondrial genomes) that was crossed to a male fertile pollen source to generate the F1 Hakurei Turnip seed (now CMS).
How do they expand the F1 seed population and keep this line going for sales year after year?
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Feb 24, 2014 21:19:09 GMT -5
How do they expand the F1 seed population and keep this line going for sales year after year? The mother line is maintained by pollinating her with an open pollinated version of herself. She doesn't have to be regenerated every year, only from time to time as the seed stock stored in the freezer gets low. Then to make the F1 you plant the mother line and use a different open pollinated line as the pollen donor. CMS could be used by any average gardener to create hybrids in this manner. It would take about 5 generations of back-crossing onto the mother to get a stable CMS line that could be used for making crosses. |
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Post by philagardener on Feb 24, 2014 22:09:05 GMT -5
Got it! Thanks, Joseph!
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Post by donald on Mar 29, 2014 7:10:09 GMT -5
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 29, 2014 11:10:32 GMT -5
Politics is off-topic to this forum. Because some of the posted links were to political documents, I'll be invoking a moderator's prerogative to make sure that the discussion stays focused on the farming, genetic, biological, and social aspects of this topic.
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Post by nathanp on Mar 29, 2014 23:04:10 GMT -5
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Post by donald on Mar 30, 2014 9:26:48 GMT -5
Politics aside here is the farming side of cisgenic CMS hybrid seed development and concerns about seed integrity. CMS cell fusion hybrids are used by organic farmers due in part to their demand by consumers and lack of organic OP seed options. Here is how cell fusion hybrid GM is detected in EU market. www.genetic-id.de/downloads/cms/Genetic-ID_CMS_Fact_Sheet_1.0_en.pdf |
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Post by trixtrax on Mar 30, 2014 9:53:53 GMT -5
"CMS cell fusion hybrids are used by organic farmers due in part to their demand by consumers and lack of organic OP seed options."
Please cite examples of demand from consumers. We may lack cheaper sources of OP seed for some crop varieties, but definitely do not lack traditional hybrids at a cheap price. If OP seed could not be cost-justified by a farmer, organic or otherwise, regular hybrid seed could be chosen. As awareness is raised, many farmers I have heard from are now shying away from varieties that might be CMS cell fusion tainted due to growing concern.
CMS cell fusion hybrids are currently banned in Europe under the European organic standards.
Donald, I see that you are a new member, welcome to the forum.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 30, 2014 11:14:24 GMT -5
CMS cell fusion hybrids are used by organic farmers due in part to their demand by consumers and lack of organic OP seed options. Is that some kind of a mantra? Can you be more specific? Which consumers or market segments are demanding that their farmers grow CMS cell fusion cybrids? I wonder why consumers would be demanding that from their farmers? Which crops specifically are consumers demanding be grown as cybrids? At least in my market as a small-scale grower, my consumers are generally not even aware that crops can be grown using cell fusion CMS genetic engineering. They are certainly not demanding that I use CMS on my farm. Is the CMS cell fusion debate causing problems to you as an organic farmer? Are some of your favorite customers upset with you because they found out that you have been feeding them cybrids? Do they believe that cybrids are GMO? If I hadn't already banned CMS crops from my farm due to biological issues, I would ban them now for social reasons: It's easier for me to market non-cybrid crops. As for the second part of the mantra... I have never wanted to grow a species and been thwarted in my efforts because seed was only available as a cybrid. I have chopped out plenty of CMS and/or otherwise sterile crops from my fields because I don't allow CMS on my farm whether it originated by so-called natural means (theoretical or not) or whether it originated in a laboratory. Male sterile rowcrops are banned from my fields by deliberate choice. And I do not feel deprived at all. I can still grow every species my heart desires. I could even grow organically-sourced hybrid brassicas if I wanted because they can be created using self-incompatibility. Screening for CMS is easy. Expensive lab tests are not required. I carry a 20X jewelers loupe in my pocket that I use to examine flowers. If a plant has defective flowers then it's chop, chop, chop. Usually in CMS crops the anthers are missing, or shriveled, or deformed. Sometimes anthers are present, but don't release pollen, or the pollen comes out as a jelly instead of as dust. I suppose that in a crop like broccoli, that the end user could even screen for CMS: Put a stem in a glass of water in the kitchen window and let it flower, and look at the flowers to see if there are anthers. |
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Post by jondear on Mar 30, 2014 12:13:32 GMT -5
I have a question regarding the food produced from this technology; are they less healthful?
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Post by 12540dumont on Mar 30, 2014 12:43:46 GMT -5
Joseph, that works great, but I'd like to know before I buy. I buy hardly any hybrid seeds. Mostly because I can purchase 99% of seeds I can use that are OP. Even if the seeds are not organic, I can plant them, save them and the second year they are organic. The only hybrids I ever buy are corn. Sugar Buns, Sugar Pearl....can't find the like anywhere from OP.
If my customers thought that I was planting anything CMS...they would drop like flies. However, not one of them has a problem with me getting seeds from the USDA that are not organic and planting them and giving them a portion of the production from these. My customers will even save seeds for me.
I wonder if Genetic ID Germany has published a list of CMS seeds?
Jondear, if you are a bee the answer is yes. I'm not certain if anyone has actually done any tests. Certainly they have done no tests to see if GMO is harmful. If they don't test, then of course it's not harmful. Sort of like, if you don't ask permission it's okay, right?
Certainly we can all see that if CMS gets loose...say my neighbor is planting all CMS veges and I'm saving all OP varieties, it wouldn't be long before all my seeds were sterile.
When all the seeds are sterile, who owns all the food?
Follow the money.
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