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Post by bunkie on Nov 24, 2013 10:53:16 GMT -5
I had not heard of this technique before and find it interesting, as well as quite disturbing... Why Cell Fusion CMS Cybrid seed is creepyseedambassadors.org/Recently I have been asked by several farmers and seed savers to write up a little something about a technology few people know about that is becoming more and more prevalent in our food system. When I bring it up in passing everyone seems to want to know more and their first question is often, “Why have I never heard of this?” After discussing it with many other organic farmers a question I always get is, “Is that illegal for organic farming?” I answer by saying “No, not yet at least.” And then predictably they say, “Well, it shouldn’t be allowed.”
This technology has been called “cell fusion CMS” and it is used to create male-sterile breeding lines, which are then used to create many common F1 hybrid seed varieties. These hybrid varieties are found in many seed catalogs and including many hybrid cabbage, broccoli and interestingly Belgian endive among other crops. The technology has been around for the last few decades and is sometimes called hybrid seed from protoplast fusion cytoplasmic male sterility (CMS). I have nicknamed it “transgeneric cybrid seed.” It is a kind of a biotech revision of a naturally occurring breeding technique that now straddles the border of genetic engineering. I said revision because some cytoplasmic male sterility can occur naturally – but cell fusion CMS does not occur naturally.... |
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Post by hortusbrambonii on Nov 24, 2013 12:34:15 GMT -5
on or beyond the border of genetic ingeneering?
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Post by billw on Nov 24, 2013 13:01:27 GMT -5
This is generally regarded as not genetic engineering because it does not involve the direct manipulation of the plant's genome.
But, another interesting way to look at it is whether or not the process can occur in nature. Most GE techniques are based on processes that actually happen naturally. For example, interspecies transfer of genetic material by viruses and bacteria happens in nature.
Protoplast fusion, to the best of my knowledge, only happens in a lab.
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Post by PatrickW on Dec 3, 2013 4:45:18 GMT -5
This is a major issue in Europe.
No, technically speaking it's not allowed in organic foods here. However, there is no labelling requirement for this technology, and CMS seeds are legal here.
Because organic certification depends mostly on the 'knowledge' of GMOs, this sometimes ends up in organic foods.
In short, a seed company would not be able to sell CMS certified organic seeds. If however an organic farmer chooses non-certified organic seeds, because appropriate certified seeds are not available, and they unknowingly purchase CMS seeds, their fruits and vegetables would still be able to be certified organic.
This is one of the big loopholes that exist for GMOs in Europe...
This is why buying from a farmer you trust is much more important than buying certified organic.
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Post by stillandrew on Feb 19, 2014 13:51:10 GMT -5
After I wrote my peice trying to explain cell fusion as simply as possible, Why cell fusion is creepy, a panel was presented at the Organic Seed Alliance Conference a few weeks ago. If anyone wants to dive deeper into the issue here are some links from their web broadcast. Jim really dives deep into the technical stuff. This is mostly from a certified organic production perspective and how it relates to certified organic seed, but I think it is very relevant to anyone interested in the plant breeding techniques used in commercial seed or anyone wanting to de-hybridize an F1. I think it is a great topic for people to be debating and learning more about. I am especially interested because of how it is used to control the genetics of a hybrid variety from falling into the hands of a competitor and how it is leading to the broad scale erosion of diversity in the seed market. Monopoly tactics have drawbacks and cell fusion is primarily a monopoly tactic. Unpacking the Cell Fusion Debate - Part 2 (Zea Sonnabend) From CCOF Unpacking the Cell Fusion Debate - Part 3 (Jim Myers) from Oregon State University Unpacking the Cell Fusion Debate - Part 2 (Jodi Lew-Smith) from High mowing Seed |
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 20, 2014 10:25:19 GMT -5
Zea Sonnabend and Jim Meyers talks were extremely useful. I'm a little appalled at how muddled the information about varieties that have had cell fusion techniques applied to them is. One thing I haven't seen mentioned so much are the modern Asian green hybrids like Summerfest Komatsuna, the new hybrid Gai Lan vars, baby bok choi, etc. Trixtrax just nailed me the other day with the horrifying news that my beloved Hakurei turnip is cell fusion CMS. That hurts. I'm contemplating the likelihood that I have to dump any seed in my collection that is a hybrid asian green on the strong suspicion that they are all cell fusion hybrids.
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Post by trixtrax on Feb 20, 2014 16:37:20 GMT -5
 the silent danger of cybrid cms |
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Post by flowerweaver on Feb 21, 2014 11:11:56 GMT -5
Ox & trixtrax, is the Senposai hybrid a cell fusion CMS? I grow very few commercial hybrids, and I'm just about ready to dump them all. It seems not only urgent to save pure seed, but to create our own hybrids free of any lab tinkering.
billw some GE processes are most unnatural, like the FlavR SavR crossing of a tomato and a flounder!
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 21, 2014 12:37:07 GMT -5
I haven't purchased or seen any Senposai seed that was labeled an F1 hybrid. It was a wide cross between komatsuna (B. rapa) and some kind of cabbage or collard B. oleracea to create a new form of Brassica napus. Reportedly embryo rescue was used to acquire the initial plants. I haven't heard of anything like cell fusion being used, and I don't see how it would have helped. I personally don't have a problem with embryo rescue, especially in brassica crossings. You are basically taking a short-cut vs doing many more cross pollinations till you get some viable seed.
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Post by flowerweaver on Feb 21, 2014 16:29:46 GMT -5
Evergreen seeds is labeling their Senposai a hybrid, although from the description is sounds like a wide cross.
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Post by gilbert on Feb 22, 2014 18:29:35 GMT -5
What about using chromosome doubling? Does this have problems? I can see where CMS Cybrid stuff and conventional GMOs can go wrong. Does using chromosome doubling chemicals pose similar problems? Or is this just speeding up a natural event, unlike cybrids and GMOs? What about mutagenics? Is this just speeding up the rate of natural mutation, or does it have similar dangers to GMOs?
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 22, 2014 19:08:06 GMT -5
It's a difficult question to answer, and I think a lot of us are going to find different places of comfort. I know some folks would have trouble with any technique requiring tissue culture like embryo rescue. Definitely a lot of the crunchy organic anti-GMO crowd would probably have similar problems with the mutagens or spindle poisons for chromosome doubling. But triticale is very popular with some segments of the organic rainbow, and it was created with colchicine. I've often hoped to create my own little tissue culture lab to play with micro-propagation. I'd be much less likely to mess with chromosome doubling compounds due to their rather scary toxicity. Likewise the mutagens.
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Post by billw on Feb 22, 2014 20:38:22 GMT -5
I judge based on the end results rather than the techniques involved. I have no real problem with genetic engineering, but I have no interest in crops bred to withstand extra pesticides. Use genetic engineering to defeat disease, improve nutrition, or expand the range of a crop and I feel differently, although once the patenting and legal considerations come into play, my interest is significantly reduced. Protoplast fusion that results in compromised fertility is totally uninteresting to me, but that is not the only end result. You might use it instead to get improved chloroplasts in a crop that otherwise remains normally fertile. I'd be open to that sort of thing. And, of course, you can use the technique to restore fertility to a variety that has been broken by it. If you are worried about what is natural, best not to think too hard about any element of modern agriculture or agriculture itself for that matter.
I'm more concerned about the steady conversion of the culmination of thousands of years of public domain plant breeding into patented, licensed, corporate-owned products. The lawyers and politicians are more toxic than any plant that we're likely to create.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Feb 22, 2014 21:06:01 GMT -5
I'm more concerned about the steady conversion of the culmination of thousands of years of public domain plant breeding into patented, licensed, corporate-owned products. The lawyers and politicians are more toxic than any plant that we're likely to create. I'm pretty close to bill here. I disapprove greatly of GMO technology given its current direction, but I can see a place for it if it was used carefully and responsibly for the benefit of mankind. Some of the anti-GMO rhetoric would have you expecting triffids to start marching out of the corn fields any minute. The use of intellectual property law as a bludgeon to enslave the producer and vertically integrate the food system is a very scary aspect of the conversion to GMO crops which gets much less attention than it should. The lawyers are here, and they are here to bury us. |
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Post by stillandrew on Feb 23, 2014 14:12:03 GMT -5
And, of course, you can use the technique to restore fertility to a variety that has been broken by it. This is an excellent point. We have been describing the problem of Cell fusion as primarily a one of preventing access to tied up traits that cannot be used in future breeding. With naturally derived CMS there is an inherent leakiness and often plenty of restorer genes present. But one could use Cell fusion to put the natural cytoplasm back into cell fusion hybrid cell. It would be very difficult and expensive to do but it could possibly be done. This total infertility issue is how we came to believe Hakurei Turnip is Cell fusion CMS because the F1 flowers are totally sterile. But I havn't seen any statement from the company or the breeder, so there is a small chance that we are mistaken. If someone had a tone of money and a very fancy lab we could theoretically de-hybridize Hakurei turnip or at least access some of its unique traits. I use to say that Cell fusion is an evolutionary dead end but this may not be totally the case. However, practically speaking it probably still is a dead end. |
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the silent danger of cybrid cms 
