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Post by jondear on Nov 21, 2015 23:27:47 GMT -5
From what I can tell they are very much set on making this an identical organization to Seed Savers. Make it just like the organization they didn't like and left. That makes a lot of friggin sense. We should just make a homegrown goodness seed exchange. Oh wait, that is already a thing...  |
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Post by zeedman on Nov 22, 2015 17:09:15 GMT -5
I am still officially on the board--strongly questioning for how long--and I can give you a candid personal review: this seems to be a well-intentioned, disorganized group of mostly east coast folks shepherded by an old school mentality. We've had only one teleconference, the one I mentioned quite a while ago. I will get a rush of emails for a few days, then nothing for months. Although I had hopes they would fill the two vacant seats with representatives from other parts of the country no one came forward, and more east coast folks have been hand picked. That means I'm the only board member located in a very different region (the southwest). Those board members like myself that were forward thinking have grown tired of trying to convince the others that this is a prime opportunity to grow GSN in a modern direction--PayPal, relational online database, to move away from a printed catalog, etc. From what I can tell they are very much set on making this an identical organization to Seed Savers. The website isn't being updated because there is no money to hire help, and no one is seeking grant money (as far as I know) to kickstart this. Having built websites and databases myself, I'm not convinced the help has been effective in what they are doing. I think they are planning to move forward with the election re-do, but I haven't heard anything more on that recently. I will likely remove my name from the ballot since my suggestions go nowhere. Added emphasis mine. I suspected as much, which is the reason I held back from joining. There didn't seem to be much drive to move forward; I expected better from people who should have been united in common purpose. Their failure means that some of their collections are only one death or tragedy away from extinction - most notably Will's. It's a shame, we really need an alternative means for those who left SSE (and those who would never join) to share their collections with others. There is still a great need for something which can pick up the pieces, especially as SSE continues to narrow their focus under their new Accessions Policy, and abandon much of their collection. And while I admit that I still enjoy using the paper SSE Yearbook (and have been somewhat reluctant myself to embrace new technology), I agree that there is a need to move the cause of preservation forward into the new media, for a new generation of gardeners. Maybe that effort can start here? There seems to be plenty of cumulative knowledge & vision on this site. |
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Post by reed on Nov 22, 2015 18:06:09 GMT -5
If you are going to have an organization dedicated to "preserving heirlooms" wouldn't it have to have a regional focus? Maybe a central headquarters but regional networks and actual ongoing grow outs and sharing said heirlooms in the area where they may have originated but also available for distribution elsewhere.
The single location of SSE and picking and choosing what gets grown or archived is bad for everyone. Local areas could lose what might be a part of their heritage and everyone else could lose genetics than may have been useful.
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Post by flowerweaver on Nov 22, 2015 19:00:38 GMT -5
To their credit they have made the joining fees more affordable. I think a lot of folks have held back from joining for the same reasons and that has hurt the financial ability to move forward. As a whole the seated board gets along very well, although the start up personality clashes didn't help, unfortunately promulgated by those whose collections could have benefited most.
GSN does intend to be democratically based with input from members, so there are some important differences. But in general structure they are copying SSE. They feel the need to get a catalog published, when there is no money or help to do so. IMO a catalog is outdated by the time it is printed. I would much prefer to keep a relational database current, allow for advanced searches, and let folks print their own information as needed.
But there are those who worry about disenfranchising the few who don't have computers. I see it the other way--by not moving forward with a real database and PayPal we are disenfranchising most of the modern world who would be interested in joining if it were easier to do so.
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Post by 12540dumont on Nov 22, 2015 22:05:37 GMT -5
I received a survey monkey request. (Finally) Which is something I told they should use for voting etc. It's quick and easy and cheap.
Most of the seed catalogs I get go in the recycling. I save a few for research and history, but really, my house doesn't need any more paper.
95% of the libraries in the country have computers. These folks are not listening to their constituents. No catalog. Don't waste the trees. A computer site can be updated in a few minutes. A catalog has to wait till next year. Their site sucks. Truly, they could have gotten a canned site cheaper that actually worked. I think I've written to their admin at least 5 times telling her I cannot log in. Each time she gives me a temporary password that I cannot change and only works for that day.
I'm sorry I ever got involved. It's East Coast politics at it's worst. Each time I suggest someone from the left coast...well they had an excuse. No one came forward? Well, that's because they drove them away.
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Post by steev on Nov 22, 2015 22:18:18 GMT -5
I sent my check quite early; I've never been able to access anything. PITA!
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 22, 2015 22:24:49 GMT -5
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Post by zeedman on Nov 23, 2015 1:00:38 GMT -5
But there are those who worry about disenfranchising the few who don't have computers. I see it the other way--by not moving forward with a real database and PayPal we are disenfranchising most of the modern world who would be interested in joining if it were easier to do so. I'm a little lost on how the digitally challenged get disenfranchised... since without a computer, they probably wouldn't even know about GSN in the first place. If there has been any written promotion of GSN - or any promotion at all, outside of conversations on gardening websites - I've missed it. It would take a significant amount of outreach just to inform the non-connected about their existence, and even more to keep them involved. At present, the vast majority of the "disenfranchised" are those who have left SSE, without alternative means to share their seeds - and most of those are connected. The high cost of doing business by paper, vs. the ease & relative low cost of digital - this decision should be a slam dunk. SSE has recently started an online version of their Yearbook, which allows editing year round... if GSN wants to emulate SSE, that is the model they should use as a blueprint. Says one who is still trying to push himself into the digital millennium, and doesn't yet know how to multi-quote properly.  No argument here. Essentially, that is what SSE has become, whether they choose to admit it or not. If they only preserve as an organization what can be grown to seed on Heritage Farm, then by the process of selection, they are preserving only seeds adapted to (or at least tolerant of) the Midwest & similar climates. It falls on the members in more challenging climates to support their own heirlooms without SSE as a backup - and that highlights one of the problems with paper publishing. The book release, and the data cutoff necessary for publishing, are not well suited to those with different growing seasons. A regional organization - or at least a chapter of a larger organization - would be more responsive to their needs. There is no need for the organization to grow out everything themselves; the Heritage Seed Library in the U.K. is a model for such an arrangement, where members request seed & return part of what they grow for further distribution. But the big question in my mind is whether the focus on preservation of "heirlooms" only is too narrow. There are a lot of good commercial varieties that were dropped with the advent of hybrids, and those too are worth preserving. SSE has chosen to focus only on heirlooms, and as a result, many of those commercially-developed varieties will be abandoned. So too, by their admission, will they drop many of the varieties previously collected from Gatersleben, Vavilov, and other seed banks. I had hopes that the GSN might evolve into something big enough to preserve some of that diversity, but at this point, that doesn't seem likely. |
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Post by reed on Nov 23, 2015 4:22:10 GMT -5
I think I started a Seed Alliance although the other members don't know it. It consists of me, my nephew up closer to Cincinnati, the Amish fellow up the road and the folks who run the local CSA. Also the museum, they have a 1860's homestead and the other little historic house, called Venoge, period 1816. They both with my help, have little gardens. I keep things "pure" for them. My friend in North Carolina is an associate member.
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Post by jondear on Nov 24, 2015 13:17:07 GMT -5
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Post by flowerweaver on Jan 10, 2016 18:45:54 GMT -5
My response to recent board emails:
Thank you Matthew [newest board member] for recognizing the many good ideas regarding GSN you found on the Homegrown Goodness forum. I would encourage board members to read the entire thread to get a better understanding of the general frustrations of what GSN members have been experiencing.
HG forum members are a national and international group largely focused on landrace seed development who could not find a place in the 'heirloom only' mentality of SSE and were hopeful about fitting into GSN. As a landrace grower, I represent this segment of the 'collective wisdom'. I have tried to answer these growers' continued questions about the slow progress of GSN as best I could, and as I understand it, freedom of speech is still part of democracy.
I had hoped that GSN would be guided by the board's ideas, not some unidentified 'we' who 'understood from the beginning' that GSN would copy so much of SSE's infrastructure. I have come to feel there is little room for new ideas.
In response, I can think of two HG members who represent the best and brightest seedsmen/western growers who have had their ideas discounted and been discouraged from further participation in GSN from behind the scene meddling and control.
In my time as a board member I have tried to get the group to look at progressive ways to differentiate the organization from other similar ones and to consider a truly relational database with searchable fields that would be meaningful to many, including my growing circle. As I recall, some of the landrace search terms proposed were considered ridiculous. But they are important to many of us who are working within a thousands year old growing tradition.
I have found the greater majority of you pleasant and professional to work with, and I wish you success in your endeavors. I had intended to wait until the election redo to not put my name back on the ballot, but I do presently feel my time and ideas might better serve other groups. As it stands, my two-year term might be up before another election is ever organized.
Please accept my immediate resignation.
Sincerely,
Sage Austin
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Post by nathanp on Jan 10, 2016 19:53:29 GMT -5
Good for you. I have so little patience with bureaucracy.
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dave
gopher
Posts: 18 
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Post by dave on Jan 10, 2016 20:50:13 GMT -5
Congratulations. I can imagine how hard it was to come to that decision. I’m sure it was your hope to make a difference. But something is certainly going on behind the scenes that doesn’t bode well for the new organization.
Maybe with some volunteer seed money this forum is a better base to start from.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 10, 2016 22:40:28 GMT -5
Thank you Sage. Welcome home.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Jan 11, 2016 6:37:53 GMT -5
It really is a shame. I had hoped that Grassroots would become something great. And I will also add that it seemed like most of the folks involved had their hearts in the right place, particularly Will Bonsall. I must say in hindsight, that the seeds of failure were pretty much inherent from the beginning due to Will Bonsall's preconceived vision for it. He is the individual who pretty much decided that he needed to leave SSE and replace it with another organization that was basically SSE in Maine. Whether or not he acknowledged completely, that was the structure he was striving for. I say this after being active on the Grassroots website forum during its brief period of activity and during the lead up to the first election when Will was actively calling folks with a vote. I had a number of interesting conversations with him. He's a good guy. I think the biggest difficulty is that the internet has fundamentally changed the way in which people can access each other and access seed. The core cadre surrounding Will seem to fundamentally not understand that reality, and it must be understood to make a viable organization. SSE is slowly dieing. Grassroots basically died right after it germinated from the looks of it. If a centralized seed saving organization wants to survive and thrive it needs to foster a structure that makes interfacing with it worthwhile to potential members. A searchable, well designed database of available seed is critical, and very low costs are pretty important to make that an attractive alternative to all the various seed trading/sharing options available to folks from other gardeners online. I've received seed via HGer's like Joseph Lofthouse, 12540dumont, Drahkk, maicerochico, and gray that would have cost me hundreds of dollars under SSE structures. Why should I pay membership fees to an organization when I can find better, vastly more interesting and diverse seed on my own? That is the question a seed saving organization needs to answer if it wants to attract and keep members. |
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