Grassroot Seed Network

[steev]

Yeah, well, don't forget the "Heritage White Parks Cattle", not a little bit overblown on puffing up the "theme-park" nature of what had occurred.

[nicollas]

Please remember that HG is a very great community and knowledge resource but is very vulnerable to any decision taken by Proboards...

[oxbowfarm]

Jan 13, 2016 8:32:30 GMT -5 nicollas said:

Please remember that HG is a very great community and knowledge resource but is very vulnerable to any decision taken by Proboards...

Or by Alan...

Definitely any open seed sharing network should not use a platform where only one person has the keys.

My personal ideal seed sharing network would have the following:

1. Low or no annual "membership fee"
2. No $ cost for seeds, just reimbursement for shipping
3. Searchable database for varieties, linked to bioregion/climate
4. No restrictions on genotypic "purity" or heirloom status
5. No tomatos, tomato people don't need another place to trade seeds

[gilbert]

The only reason I'm concerned about loss of varieties is "loss of pieces to the puzzle." In other words, many varieties could go extinct, and we have not lost anything much; just a particular arrangement of genes which could be reassembled from other varieties.

However, some varieties contain unique, or nearly unique, genes or gene sequences which could potentially be very useful. For instance, most pole beans do not actually grow well in the middle of a field of corn. Carol Deppe trialed lots of varieties, and found only one which, in the middle of the cornfield, increased its leaf size compared to ones on the edge of the field, and thus produced a decent yield. For all we know, that trait only exists in one variety. So let's say it goes extinct, or gets jumbled into a landrace NOT grown in the shade, so that it gets selected out. That means that somebody will not have a trait that could have been useful to them. So the problem is that the pieces I have are not the pieces to my puzzle, but they might be somebody else's.

Of course, not very many varieties have unusual traits. And Joseph's way of preservation means that he can preserve lots more diversity then he could if he was trying to conserve thousands of distinct varieties. So maybe, when all the seed banks are dead and gone, the corn field bean will be resurrected from some landrace somewhere, its genes having quietly continued without being recognized.

Basically, I'm worried about loss of characteristics, not varieties.

And so I think we own the seed bank pioneers a huge debt.

And for those worried about this, support Sandhill Preservation Center!

[kazedwards]

Jan 13, 2016 10:31:02 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

Definitely any open seed sharing network should not use a platform where only one person has the keys.

My personal ideal seed sharing network would have the following:

1. Low or no annual "membership fee"
2. No $ cost for seeds, just reimbursement for shipping
3. Searchable database for varieties, linked to bioregion/climate
4. No restrictions on genotypic "purity" or heirloom status
5. No tomatos, tomato people don't need another place to trade seeds

I completely agree. The only reason I would like to see an annual membership is for the people that drop off shortly after listing. That way you would know the what people are active and you can actually get a hold of. I was on a site once that I found a lot of listings. Then when I went to get a hold of the person I couldn't and the last log on date was a few years before. It just caused a lot of frustration.

[nicollas]

I'd add very easy ways to import/export lists, and some mechanism of regular backups so that if something go wrong (technical or human factors) the data is not lost.

And keep the tomatoes

[raymondo]

The Australian version of the Seed Savers Exchange is the Seed Savers Network (SSN). It was initially modelled on the SSE (central seed bank, year book and so on). They encouraged local seed saving groups and offered some support in materials and seeds. After a few years, the people running it decided that the best place to store seeds is in the hands of gardeners and farmers. They distributed all the seeds in their central seed bank to the local groups and/or any individuals who wanted them. A number of the local groups have flourished and are well-organised local networks. The only thing missing is a central place for exchange on a national scale. A web site would solve this problem but there is no-one with the interest to set it up and run it.

[blueadzuki]

Jan 13, 2016 11:13:30 GMT -5 gilbert said:

The only reason I'm concerned about loss of varieties is "loss of pieces to the puzzle." In other words, many varieties could go extinct, and we have not lost anything much; just a particular arrangement of genes which could be reassembled from other varieties.

However, some varieties contain unique, or nearly unique, genes or gene sequences which could potentially be very useful. For instance, most pole beans do not actually grow well in the middle of a field of corn. Carol Deppe trialed lots of varieties, and found only one which, in the middle of the cornfield, increased its leaf size compared to ones on the edge of the field, and thus produced a decent yield. For all we know, that trait only exists in one variety. So let's say it goes extinct, or gets jumbled into a landrace NOT grown in the shade, so that it gets selected out. That means that somebody will not have a trait that could have been useful to them. So the problem is that the pieces I have are not the pieces to my puzzle, but they might be somebody else's.

Of course, not very many varieties have unusual traits. And Joseph's way of preservation means that he can preserve lots more diversity then he could if he was trying to conserve thousands of distinct varieties. So maybe, when all the seed banks are dead and gone, the corn field bean will be resurrected from some landrace somewhere, its genes having quietly continued without being recognized.

Basically, I'm worried about loss of characteristics, not varieties.

And so I think we own the seed bank pioneers a huge debt.

And for those worried about this, support Sandhill Preservation Center!

That's actually why I, unlike a great many people here, am not actually against genetic engineering or GMO's. That is, I am firmly against the motives of GMO's as they stand now, and feel that we are going down the totally wrong path with them, but I am not against the scientific methods or concepts themselves.

The way I see it, no matter how hard we try, we are going to lose a LOT of possible traits, including by methods that we actually have no control over (Imagine a plant that develops a gene mutation that would make it super drought tolerant, but no one ever knows because that plant happened to grown in a place and season when there was massive rain. And the random nature of mutations and sheer AMOUNT of DNA in any organism means that there is a real chance that those particular genes will NEVER come together the same way EVER again.

So the only way I see where we can be sure of not missing anything important is if we get the gene technology to the point where we can more or less write DNA to order, and combine it with a truly COMPLETE gene sequencing, one where we can insert a DNA sequence into a computer and model how the resultant plant will work in any circumstances; then be able to synthesize seed or plantlets with that genotype. This is all science fiction now, but it seems to me that these things are probably not too far off in the future.

Moving onto the authoritarian question, I know for me personally it would not work long term, ever if I was the one giving the orders. As you said, that kind of model needs someone on a crusade, and the problem with people on crusades is that they tend to eventually be willing to do terrible things in the name of their cause. The temptation to FORCE people to give me their seed (or more accurately, to get the backing of someone who could provide such force) in the name of "saving it", or to mandate what people could grow and when (not in the sense of controlling what was available, but in the sense of basically turning them into farming slaves.) would just be too strong.

[nicollas]

blueadzuki For that matter the less controversial mutation (irradiation or chemical) breeding could be more relevant

[steev]

My own best solution to the authoritarian (slave) question is clones, since mine would surely echo my own interests and concerns; the fly in the ointment is that I doubt I could really stand a population of me; guess I'll soldier on: special, unique, and solitary. Doubtless I'll be missed when I'm gone, or not, whatever, not my problem, in any event.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Jan 13, 2016 8:32:30 GMT -5 nicollas said:

Please remember that HG is a very great community and knowledge resource but is very vulnerable to any decision taken by Proboards...

I have been wondering for a long time, about how to implement a distributed forum, seed-list, etc.. Something where each node of the network kept it's own data, and shared it with other nodes so that every node had a peer-to-peer connection to other nodes, and there wasn't any centralized owner... Is there any forum software that currently operates in that kind of setting, and is trivial to set up and use?

[raymondo]

Jan 14, 2016 3:29:39 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

I have been wondering for a long time, about how to implement a distributed forum, seed-list, etc.. Something where each node of the network kept it's own data, and shared it with other nodes so that every node had a peer-to-peer connection to other nodes, and there wasn't any centralized owner... Is there any forum software that currently operates in that kind of setting, and is trivial to set up and use?

Pass

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Jan 14, 2016 3:29:39 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

I have been wondering for a long time, about how to implement a distributed forum, seed-list, etc.. Something where each node of the network kept it's own data, and shared it with other nodes so that every node had a peer-to-peer connection to other nodes, and there wasn't any centralized owner... Is there any forum software that currently operates in that kind of setting, and is trivial to set up and use?

+1 for an interesting idea. Not currently aware of any such software. It reminds me a little of OpenMesh wifi routers for some reason. and also of the idea that anyone can clone wikipedia if they so wished. No idea why those two things came to mind. The only thing that i can think of is Google Docs. It lets you share documents and spreadsheets with other people and even has the ability for everyone to edit the document all at the same time. Of course that is hosted on one server. And that server is Google. What some like to call the evil empire. So Google Docs is obviously not what you are looking for.

[steev]

It's an interesting concept, joseph; I think much would depend on shared information about specific environments, relating to nodes of connection. Might be a bit of work to get the whole thing up and running, but potentially very valuable. I claim no expertise, computer-wise, nor any significant chops in botany or agronomics, but even I can see the potential value. I think we should do what we can to bring this idea to fruition.

[billw]

There actually is such a thing, called Usenet. Once upon a time, when Usenet was the equivalent of today's web, everybody had a local Usenet server that simply transmitted the new communications to all the other servers, after which they were retrived locally. Usenet was also designed to operate over a variety of different communications channels (not just TCP/IP) so it has hooks that would allow it to be easily connected into peer to peer networks for synchronization. It would take some work, but most of the bits and pieces are there.