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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 7, 2018 22:45:47 GMT -5
Wow!! loving this thread right now! and the project! AND the collaboration that is going on! You now have me excited and scared at the same time, lol. Now i need to doubly make sure i have robust labels and plenty of pictures of each species, hybrids, and plant. as a side note i am making progress germinating seedlings from the S. lycopersicoides and S. sitiens! Hope they make seeds! Both are probably the furthest genetically from domestic tomatoes and thus the hardest to cross into (but perhaps higher chances to interspecies crosses). Both would be interesting as a tool to study differences in pollinator attraction. But S. Sitiens is Allogamous Self-Incompatible (SI) - with 6 mo. seed maturation. Flowers year round and is not day-length sensitive, so it should be easier to make crosses and save seed from, but S. lycopersicoides has reported perennial traits in very heavy frost areas! But is Allogamous Self-Incompatible (SI) - with 6 mo. seed maturation. Flowers Fall & Spring. Day-length sensitive. p.s. Solanum galapagense is reported as having the best whitefly resistance of all the other wilds from what I've read. Also this discussion and photos are fantastic! Please consider taking the time to help update and make corrections to my wild tomato wiki! And feel free to create pages for these interspecies hybrids and example photos! biolumo.com/index.php?title=Tomato_Breeding_Database |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 7, 2018 23:19:40 GMT -5
Wow!! loving this thread right now! and the project! AND the collaboration that is going on! Here's a grow report for you... I have three plants currently flowering of the (domestic X pennellii) seed that you sent. And about 24 plants that are potted up. And some more that are getting their first true leaves. The pennellii leaf type is very strong in this population! I'm not seeing much segregation regarding leaf structure, but I am seeing tremendous segregation for vigor. So far, only three plants have flowered. Each of them has the open flower structure of S pennellii. A flat of F2 seedlings (domestic X s pennellii).  High Resolution PhotoF2 flower (domestic X S pennellii)  |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 7, 2018 23:35:45 GMT -5
Here's a grow report for you... Woo Hoo! Exciting! Thank you for the grow report. Very cool. In future observations i would find it interesting to know how many or if all of them produce no pollen like the large one i have currently. I need to start more F2 plants of them myself AND some F1s from the alternate pennellii line that has a different domestic tomato mother. EDIT: speaking of unexpected crosses... I wonder of any of those have peruvianum ancestry. I had a very flowerous peruvianum plant near by the main F1 pennellii plant. Some of the bees would visit both. So, keep an eye on any traits that look like peruvianum. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 8, 2018 0:16:58 GMT -5
My (current) goals for the self-incompatible project are: Highest priority: Increase the number of S alleles in the population!!!: - Plant the S habrochaites and S pennellii crosses close together to encourage cross pollination.
- If any crosses between (Big Hill and Neandermato) are discovered, include them in the planting. If not, manually create the cross for next year.
- Grow some S habrochaites plants nearby. Sure any crosses will slow down selection for domestic-type fruits, but it seems like the trade off is well worth it to increase the diversity of S alleles.
- I think that I'll grow the "BC1" populations in isolation until I have a better idea what's going on with them.
Select for promiscuous flowers- They are far enough along already, that I'm intending to grow them in the greenhouse until they flower, so that I can set-out the promiscuous flowers all into the same patch. I'm intending to grow out the culls, but in a separate area.
Select for self-incompatibility and against self compatibility and/or male sterility- This might be a stretch of my abilities, because it could require a lot of attention, and/or bagging.
- If I get my act together, I would like to retry back-crossing to S habrochaites and/or to S pennellii as a method of selecting for self-incompatibility. Cause it's a nuisance that self-compatibility is a recessive trait.
Select for tertiary traits?- more locules -- larger fruits
- taste
- Color
- Determinate -- Indeterminate
It would be nice to introduce the high-beta-carotene trait into this project. I have plants growing, so may attempt a manual hybridization with pollen from S pennellii or S habrochaites. I have identified a soil that S pennellii can tolerate, so I might get some pollen from them this year. I am excited about the possibilities of the (Big Hill X Neandermato) cross because it will introduce yellow fruits, and potential for larger fruits. |
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Post by gilbert on May 8, 2018 7:46:30 GMT -5
That's interesting that I'd have two generations with terrible looking plants, but they'd still look great when returned home. I guess I'll just try to plant lots of them and select for the stronger plants. Could that also help to identify hybrids? If the original does not do well, a hybrid would have an advantage.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 8, 2018 14:17:08 GMT -5
Plants grown from the Big Hill seed sent by gilbert.  |
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Post by gilbert on May 8, 2018 21:15:35 GMT -5
That's incredible. Have you had this hyper-adaption issue with other varieties? It opens up interesting considerations.
Is there anywhere on the forums where you've gone into detail as to your seed starting procedure for tomatoes? I'd be interested to try recreating it to see if the Big Hill will do better with it. I've used two different procedures (one this year, one last year) with failure both times on the Big Hill.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 8, 2018 23:19:59 GMT -5
I probably have a hyper-adaptation issue with every variety, I am just not aware that it even exists.
My greenhouse potting mix is:
9-10 gallons coconut coir
2 gallons peat
2 pints living compost
1 pint perlite
1 tablespoon Epsom salts
1 tablespoon water soluble fertilizer
10 tablespoons slow release fertilizer
I use this mix for starting seeds, and for potting-up.
To start tomato seeds, I typically put about 50 seeds into a 3" pot, and grow them in a germination chamber which is lighted/heated 16 hours per day to 85 F, then reverts to room temp (about 60 to 65) at night. 6500 florescent lighting. Seeds buried about 3/8". Once they germinate, I grow them out in the greenhouse until they are getting their first true leaves, then transfer them to individual pots. Greenhouse stays pretty cold at night (around 40F). I spray irrigate 1-2 times per day.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 8, 2018 23:21:29 GMT -5
Found some cornelio-muelleri x peruvianum germinating out in the garden where it grew last year. I noticed that Solanum peruvianum plants have volunteered in my garden. That is two years in a row that they have volunteered. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 10, 2018 12:53:53 GMT -5
Tried to put some S. Sitiens seedlings out too early I guess. Or didn't water then enough or they died from cold idk. But they died. So now frustratingly trying to start them again from the limited seed I have left.
I also broke the stem of the largest s. Lycopersicoides plant as I was about to transplant it. Ugh. I put it back inside with copious amount of rooting powder and I'm optimistic it will survive, but dang. Not my best day. Transplanted galapagense, anasazi, and cheesmaniae into the tomato patch.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 10, 2018 13:02:59 GMT -5
The pennellii leaf type is very strong in this population! I'm not seeing much segregation regarding leaf structure, but I am seeing tremendous segregation for vigor. So far, only three plants have flowered. Each of them has the open flower structure of S pennellii. A flat of F2 seedlings (domestic X s pennellii). High Resolution PhotoF2 flower (domestic X S pennellii) Cool. It might be interesting to try backcrossing the ones with the best pennellii leaf structure back with pennellii (Or vice versa). I think those waxy leaf genetics are very valuable. The F1 hybrids seemed to thrive in my climate conditions last year, so it seems a combination of drought tolerance, high vigor, and domestic rooting genes are a great combination! I expect your bees to love those open flowers. Last summer the bees kept flying from peruvianum back to those! Hmm... I wonder if your least vigorous ones show any peruvianum traits? Is pure peruvianum slow growing? I can't remember. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 11, 2018 11:00:14 GMT -5
Hmm I'll have to try and see if I notice that with my peruvianum. I think i may have sourced mine different. I at least know I did not get my peruvianum from Joseph. Our chilense though is both from sacred succulents. Did I get my peruvianum from Alan Kapuler peace seeds?? I can't remember.. Oh well. Whatever. I know it was peruvianum cause I identified it as such. But whether my saved seeds hybridized or not who knows.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 11, 2018 12:31:28 GMT -5
The original varieties included in my Solanum peruvianum grex were LYC2822, LYC3088, LYC2669. Some plants have grown nearby to S corneliomulleri, and S habrochaites. In the 2017 growing season, I added the Kapuler material to my Solanum peruvianum grex.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on May 11, 2018 20:21:24 GMT -5
Joseph Lofthouse and others, you made a very clever squash species identification table to differentiate the different squash species. It would be very clever to do the same or similar with the wild tomato clade. Perhaps even using something like a Canadian quarter as a size reference? Maybe? But basically close up pics and well defined edges of the various species leaf structure, stem structure, and flower structure for easy identification. Perhaps even known F1 hybrids to the identification as well. I think we should do it. So everybody start taking good close up pics of specimens when you can.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on May 12, 2018 1:11:01 GMT -5
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