|
|
Post by philagardener on Jul 4, 2016 12:56:09 GMT -5
The working premise is that self-incompatibility was lost during domestication of the Tomato. That is one reason Joseph is crossing in related wild Solanum species.
The original question was how to know if an exerted stigma was being fertilized as it grew out through the flower cone. Bagging flowers should tell you that answer.
If the situation is whether an exerted stigma, self-fertilized on the way out, is still receptive to foreign pollen, things get complicated. The first pollen grains to germinate and grow pollen tubes should have an advantage, so in that case when it comes to making outcrosses there still would be a benefit to opening the flower early for a traditional manual cross if you want to get more outcrossed seeds. Otherwise you will have a background of selfed progeny.
|
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jul 4, 2016 14:53:57 GMT -5
The working premise is that self-incompatibility was lost during domestication of the Tomato. That is one reason Joseph is crossing in related wild Solanum species. The original question was how to know if an exerted stigma was being fertilized as it grew out through the flower cone. Bagging flowers should tell you that answer. If the situation is whether an exerted stigma, self-fertilized on the way out, is still receptive to foreign pollen, things get complicated. The first pollen grains to germinate and grow pollen tubes should have an advantage, so in that case when it comes to making outcrosses there still would be a benefit to opening the flower early for a traditional manual cross if you want to get more outcrossed seeds. Otherwise you will have a background of selfed progeny. This is all so interesting. "The original question was how to know if an exerted stigma was being fertilized as it grew out through the flower cone. Bagging flowers should tell you that answer."
But even if it was pollinated by the same flower, how could you know if it happened as it grew out the cone or after? Right now my only observation is if the tip of the stigma and or the cone is darkened or brown I am assuming pollination has occurred, if not then maybe it is still receptive. I guess it depends on if the pollen and stigma mature simultaneously or not, that's my new question. I see your point that if they do then most if not all seeds will be selfed even with the exerted stigmas. I don't think I want fully self incompatibility because I don't think I have reliable enough pollinators. I can find some of those little bees about any time I make a point to look but they are not there in what I would call abundance and my bumblebees seem completely disinterested in tomatoes, at least while so many other flowers are available. |
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 5, 2016 0:29:50 GMT -5
Any updates on the self-incompatibility project? I made crosses this spring in the greenhouse using domestic tomatoes as the female, and LA1777, Solanum habrochaites as the pollen donor. Some of the crosses produced seed, and some of the seed has germinated already. I expect that any of the rest that germinate will do so within a week. So I have a few F1 hybrids to play with this summer... Supposedly LA1777 is self-incompatible. However, LA1777 also produced a few fruits containing some viable seeds that have germinated. (The vast majority of flowers fell off without producing fruit, even though I was vigorously vibrating them on a regular basis to collect pollen.) There were no other S. habrochaites plants flowering, so perhaps that means either that they got pollinated by domestic tomatoes, or maybe the self-incompatibility mechanism isn't 100% excluding. A descendant of Sungold was flowering, and I suspect that it is descended from S. habrochaites, so perhaps there were enough of the self-compatibility genes running around for the reciprocal cross to work as well. Some of the newly emerged seedlings from LA1777 are currently growing, so a couple months aughta tell that story. By the way, when ripe, the fruits of LA1777 fall off the plant, so if manual crosses have been made, it might be prudent to write on the fruit rather than expecting it to stay associated with a label on the peduncle. The tomato plants in the garden are just starting to flower well enough that I have started making crosses. So far, I have attempted manual crosses in various directions between the wild species. I have attempted pollinating domestic tomatoes with pollen from the wild species. That was yesterday, so too soon to tell if anything took. I'm growing a few patches of the wild species. Mostly I'm growing in Alan Kapuler grex style. Get them all in the same garden at the same time, and let them mix it up if they will. One patch only contains one plant of each wild species: so any seeds will be from either a faulty self-incompatibility mechanism, or an interspecies hybrid. They also happened to be the survivors of the frost tolerant trial. I am growing one patch that contains about 9 S. habrochaites plants, and no other wild species. I am growing a patch in which S. pennellii and S. corneliomuleri are represented by only one plant each, and S. habrochaites and S. peruvianum are represented by 3 and 2 plants respectively. There's also a S. pimpinellifolium in that patch, but I'm not intending to use it for anything. Then there is a patch containing about 3 to 7 plants each of the wild species all jumbled together. |
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 5, 2016 0:36:43 GMT -5
Solanum peruvianum:  Solanum peruvianum: Floral display carried high above the foliage. Plainly visible from across the garden.  Solanum corneliomulleri:  Solanum habrochaites: An accession without exerted stigmas. Huge anther cones!!! Glorious floral display.  |
|
|
|
Post by jondear on Jul 6, 2016 19:09:25 GMT -5
What a nice floral display! While not as showy as the above pictures, I thought they were interesting. These are on one plant of Defiant x Big Beef.  |
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 10, 2016 14:59:55 GMT -5
while i understand the usefulness of an exerted stigma for your project, wouldn't it also require a 'pollen production delay' trait so that it doesn't self on the way out of the pollen cone? Here's a photo of how I intend to approach this in the long-term... The stigma is exerted days before the flower is producing viable pollen. Eventually, I intend this trait to be an archetype of the promiscuous pollination project. Solanum corneliomulleri:  |
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jul 10, 2016 23:55:12 GMT -5
Here's a photo of how I intend to approach this in the long-term... The stigma is exerted days before the flower is producing viable pollen. Eventually, I intend this trait to be an archetype of the promiscuous pollination project. Solanum corneliomulleri: I really like the look of those tomato flowers. I really like this project. Excited to see what comes of it in a few years. Not a project i would be able to take on easily, but glad to see Joseph taking it on. My mass tomato growout this year turned out haphazard and many of the varieties i wanted to try died as seedlings. At this point i have whatever survived my horrible tomato seedling care. Currently the best growing and the only producing fruit so far is the variety named 'Anasazi' that i drove down to Boulder to get. I hope it turns out to be a good variety worth saving. It is rumored to be found in an Anasazi ruin, but there is no way to comfirm that story and it could be like Cherokee Purple, just a made up story. But who knows. Either way it won the Boulder tomato taste test a few years ago and is reported to grow well in my climate. |
|
|
|
Post by imgrimmer on Jul 11, 2016 2:34:57 GMT -5
What a nice floral display! While not as showy as the above pictures, I thought they were interesting. These are on one plant of Defiant x Big Beef. Interesting! I intend to do crosses with Defiant because of its late blight tolerance. The possibility of an open flower in a F1 cross is great. Could you report about this cross when late blight is coming? I wonder how it takes late blight. Thank you Mikkel |
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 11, 2016 10:41:35 GMT -5
My mass tomato growout this year turned out haphazard... Me too! I made a conscious decision this spring to stop keeping garden records. I'm mumbling to myself a little bit about that, cause I figure that later on I'll be able to tell which is what by how they are growing, but right now, it's just 400 tomato plants growing in a field, and the anticipation is eating at me! I'm trialling about 70 new varieties. I was delighted that some of them just plain old croaked when planted into the field. Saves me from having to evaluate them later on. |
|
|
|
Post by steev on Jul 11, 2016 11:37:40 GMT -5
Regrettably, perhaps, I tend to feel I should take another shot at growing things that first fizzle.
|
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jul 11, 2016 13:14:22 GMT -5
Always a day late and and a dollar short. Just as I was trying to do better at keeping records, it goes out of fashion.
|
|
|
|
Post by steev on Jul 11, 2016 14:04:10 GMT -5
Ever one to be on the cutting edge of progress, I keep records mostly the same as did my illiterate ancestors.
|
|
|
|
Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jul 18, 2016 11:45:34 GMT -5
Joseph Lofthouse, A question about alternative pollinators for you: Have you ever noticed any beetles or moths pollinating your tomatoes? Or is it so far mostly Bumblebees and small bees? I ask because today i saw a red beetle pollinating (or hanging out) on the yellow yarrow we have in the yard. I had forgotten that beetles can also be pollinators. It also reminded me of that one hot dry summer that the yellow flowered weeds out in a field nearby had lots of black beetles (stinkbugs?) that seemed to be pollinating those flowers like crazy. Just wondered if beetles that already visited yellow flowers of one plant might be able to be enticed to tomatoes (perhaps more specifically to your abundant pollen tomato types).
|
|
|
|
Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jul 18, 2016 13:43:59 GMT -5
I see bumblebees, digger bees, and micro-bees fussing around with the tomato flowers. Also hoverflies. I see thrips inside anther cones. I don't know if they move from flower to flower. Sometimes I see an ant tromping around on a flower. The tomato plant that is most attractive to bees this year closes it's petals at night, so I wouldn't expect it to attract moths, but I haven't specifically went out at night to look.
|
|
|
|
Post by reed on Jul 18, 2016 13:48:30 GMT -5
I noticed that all of the more open tomato flowers closed up at night, just figured it was the norm for them.
|
|
