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Post by Carol Deppe on Nov 24, 2014 10:25:57 GMT -5
Technically there is another selection pressure I should be exerting, and will try to this upcoming year. Rice beans are still sufficiently unimproved that the have a fairly high incidence of hard seeds (around 1-2%) I've long since gotten into the habit of pre soaking all of them before planting. Not because they need it. In fact NOT soaking them would probably be better since it would mean that if I get the end of frost wrong (which with my weather I pretty much always do) the seed is still dry and better able to ride it out before better weather comes. It's mostly to avoid too many "sleeper" beans waiting it out for a year or two before coming up and messing up the color selections (I divide the crop by color but since which color gets which spot depends on how much I have of it at planting time which is where varies from year to year so older seed coming up can actually be a big problem in purifying the colors) Up till now any seed that was still hard I've then "helped" by scarifying it. But in retrospect, I probably should discard it, since all I am probably doing in ensuring that there will be hard seeds in the next generation. You don't necessarily need to eliminate the scarified seed. Just plant it at one end of the patch or row, save seed from it separately, and take your planting seed from the other lot. I'll admit that I would probably just discard (or eat) the recalcitrant seed to save myself having to deal with separate seed lots. I have enough seed lots already what with color selections for sister lines. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 24, 2014 11:21:06 GMT -5
That might work except that I don't grow the small beans in a row or patch. They go in a round area (appx 6-8") called the Stump (since that's what it was originally, a giant hollow oak stump) Each of the three subgroups (white/tan white tan with mottle and red with mottle)gets a section on the edge while the rarer colors (blue,black,pinto and the "foreign" mixes) and all other seeds in limited supply get the prime zones in the middle (their prime because they are farther away from the edge and therefore less likely to be destroyed by our overzealous gardeners and mowers who really hate the gardens (they want it all to be lawn so they can mow easier (we'd get rid of them but the fact is they are actually better about this kind of stuff than the last few. Or previous ones pulled up my apple seedlings to make the pots "clean" and smashed all of the headstones of our former pets and threw them over a cliff because "animals have no souls, so giving them burials is blasphemy."
Discard seems easier in this case. I already end up dividing each quadrant into 3-4 "arcs" to fit everything in; 1-2 more would probably destroy me.)
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 24, 2014 11:29:47 GMT -5
I do in fact TRY to do corn as transplants, to get around the animals relentless predation of them. The problem is how long the corn has to grow before they lose interests. I have yet to FIND an age they wont chew everything down. I suspect that to get there the corn plants would basically have to grow in pots up on pedestals until they were almost ready to tassel. THAT'S one of the big reasons I'm so interested in all this "mini corn"; with their smaller starting sizes, I keep hoping the lesser size will buy me the extra time I need.
The thing is as bad as your friend has it, I have it worse. except for the parts right by the house that are covered by concrete, NO where gets much sun AT ALL; it's ALL in permanent shade (the 10x10 "corn patch" got a little but now the scrub has grown in, and due to our delay in trimming it, I think a lot of it has gotten big enough to count as "trees" by now (which means we can't cut down or trim it without Village permission, which is hard and slow to get).
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 24, 2014 11:38:16 GMT -5
Everything either has to be really good at bearing extreme cold and heat at ANY point in it's growth Tell me about it! My thoughts on dealing with it, like I said in other threads, is short season everything. Cut the time it takes to harvest and minimize chances of failure due to any reason. Happen to get a good year? Grow something else or even the same thing twice. (add) If I had lots of money and lots of time and lots of land I would plant thousands of everything and just let the new mother nature sort it out. My thoughts exactly. In fact that is why I still am willing to work with what I call the Triple "P" peas. These are any peas I find that have the gene (forget what it is called) that makes the peas incredibly tiny (like ball bearing size) hence the "Triple "P" name (for "perpetual petit pois") On one side such peas are of only marginal use. it isn't just the seeds that are tiny; the whole plant is. You get plants that top out at only 1-2 feet, with main stems like thread and full size pods as big as your last finger joint (and not a lot of them) so not a great choice for eating. But I still seek them out because one of the things that shrinks is the time they take to mature. Normal size peas take a bit too long here before the heat catches up (I can get snap peas no problem, but the heat comes before any reach maturity so I can save seed again) with the Triple "P" ones I can go from seed to seed in 30-45 days. (and before you ask, no I do not currently have enough to spare [a freak cold snap wiped out my crop three years ago and it coincided with a decrease in the number of tiny peas I could find hunting, so I'm still building my stock back up) |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 24, 2014 11:42:11 GMT -5
Astronomy Domine Sweet Corn, Mendon Strain  Astronomy Domine is the variety that started me down the path to plant breeding and maintaining genetically-diverse locally-adapted varieties. It was originally developed by Alan Bishop, the owner of this forum, in collaboration with forum members. I thought that the rainbow of colors was glorious. I snapped a photo and have been taking photos ever since. It captured my imagination and lit a fire within me that turned me into a plant breeder. I originally read about Astronomy Domine sweet corn in about 2009, and got seed from it to grow the next summer. This was the first post I read about it. Two year pedigree of Astronomy Domine sweet cornThere is a thread on this forum where I have documented the journey: Astronomy DomineIn 2010 I saved seed that contained the most colorful cobs grown on my farm from the 2008 Ozark Strain of Astronomy Domine. Red, white, gray, lavender, yellow, purple, orange, etc. Old fashioned (not extra sugary) sweet corn. Chewy. Flavorful. This was my most reliable and productive sweet corn in 2010. (Compared to commercial se+ varieties that suffered from poor germination.) It has good tolerance for cold soil. I start planting about 4 weeks before average last frost date. I culled the smaller plants that were susceptible to being eaten by pheasants. It grew well in the most infertile patch of soil that exists in any of my fields. I love the taste. I sample just about every cob while saving seed so my version is very attuned to my taste preferences. I'm tasting it weeks past the prime fresh eating stage, but even then I don't save every cob for seed. During the 2011 growing season I added Alan's current version containing over 170 varieties into my version of Astronomy Domine. They were a blend of the best cutting edge hybrids and old-time heirlooms. Of note during the grow-out was that my version is about 10 days earlier than Alan's, and more colorful. I didn't intentionally select for earliness, it just happens via survival-of-the-fittest in my garden. I have put a lot of effort into selecting for genetics that provide color at the fresh eating stage. I have been doing this partly by growing small semi-isolated patches based on kernel color. Here's some examples of what the harvest from those patches look like: White:  Maroon:  Orange:  Then when I replant I plant some seed as color-to-row and some bulk seed so that the genetics are constantly churned, but I can always expect to find some of each type. There is lots of diversity in flower color: Purple Anthers and Glumes  Yellow Anthers With Purple Glumes  Purple Anthers on Yellow Glumes  Like everything I grow, I don't add fertilizer. It really did well in this field where a horse had been corralled for a decade.  I have so much fun on selection days: Peeking into every cob. Tying ribbons on the best of the best.  |
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Post by Carol Deppe on Nov 24, 2014 14:38:03 GMT -5
The discussion on how different types are effected by crossing with sugar has me all excited. Carol, in your sugar/flint experiments, is the (sh) what has caused the problems? If so is it because it is just out there to some degree in most sweet corns? I thought it was mostly in some of the more modern sweet corns. How about (se) is it a problem also or do you think it would be OK in such a mix? The most recent context I can remember was wrinkled kernels cropping up early on in my breeding Cascade Ruby-Gold Flint. The Abenaki/Roy's Calais parent had some sweet contamination. When I planted a patch with just the wrinkled kernels, I got mixes of wrinkled and field on every ear, varying in proportions. Presumably I had planted both su and sh wrinkled kernels, so I got a mix of su, sh, and field type kernels. A mess. And I can't stand the flavor of sh corn, either. If you have just su or just sh you should be able to plant all the wrinkeled/shrunken kernels and get pure sweet corn. And the EH shouldn't interfere with that. It will change the flavor and rate of loss of sugar in the ears, but it won't combine with su or sh to give field corn. |
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Post by Carol Deppe on Nov 24, 2014 14:41:04 GMT -5
Wow. That looks and sounds great! What fun!
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Post by reed on Nov 25, 2014 6:10:50 GMT -5
I do everything direct planted except tomatoes, peppers and cabbage family things and am trying to get away from even those. I have noticed volunteer tomatoes seem not to get diseased as badly and often produce better. I want lots of tomatoes to put in jars for winter, someone else can have bragging rights to "first of the season". Relatedly reed, there's a thread on permies about transplanting versus direct planting tomatoes. From what I've read, the former has out performed the latter. Honestly, I'm surprised considering how long it takes for my tomatoes to get going again, once I transplant them. The permies thread was very interesting. I'm surprised too. But they did mention that volunteers did outperform both transplant and direct seeded. Observing volunteers is really my only experience and what gave me the idea of direct seeding. I wonder what makes the difference? Something like Carol mentioned about the natural things that take place with unwashed seeds laying in the ground all winter verses clean dry ones planted in the spring. Maybe I'll try direct seeding non-washed seeds straight from a tomato in fall and see what happens. Just thinking though, we generally have enough tomatoes anyway and I 'm hooked on corn right now. |
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Post by reed on Nov 25, 2014 6:44:19 GMT -5
Carol, sorry I'm not more up to speed on proper designations for the different genes, is EH the same thing as what I referred to as se? Other than not planting any and checking with neighbors how does one go about avoiding sh? Actually the closest other corn to me last year and closest possible next is over a mile to the North East, not much to worry about I don't think. It was just a small patch. I'll visit them sometime soon and see what it was. Maybe they would like to have some of my seeds, I have plenty.
I had read about the new GMO sweet corns, too bad. Interesting on their web site they have a section about destroying crop residue within 30 days, preferably 15 to prevent insects building resistance. So, they know it will happen and they are fine with it. I suppose by advising destruction of the residue they are setting up to say "well someone misused our product, not our fault".
Joseph, I love seeing your pictures, charts and graphs. That you started this work just a few years ago and have accomplished so much in that time is very encouraging.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 25, 2014 13:09:15 GMT -5
I wish I still had my hands on the runner bean and watermelon landraces that my grandpa and great-grandpa grew in our village. Many of the crops I am working with came to me as genetically-diverse grexs from The Long Island Seed Project or Bishop's Homegrown, so they already had a lot going for them before I got involved. One of the local farmstands grows their own squash seeds, so I took full advantage of that opportunity by snatching up the occasional hybrids as I saw them. I was going to call out all the growers who have contributed to my projects, but it would take too long: My family is expecting me to cook dinner for them on Thursday.
Sh is shorthand for "Shrunken". The kernels dry into thin little shells of a kernel. The genes controlling the Sh trait are on a different chromosome than the genes for old-fashioned sweet corn, so if pollen from Sh corn gets into the su or se sweet corn it turns the kernels floury. Many people find the flavor of Sh corn unappealing (sometimes saying it tastes medicinal), and because the seed stores so little energy they can be quite unreliable to grow. Therefore small scale growers tend to avoid planting Sh corn. Sh corn holds on to it's sugars better during transportation and storage, so supermarkets often carry Sh corn during the winter. But farmer's growing for fresh market to be consumed immediately tend to plant se sweet corn.
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Post by philagardener on Nov 25, 2014 19:38:38 GMT -5
Interesting on their web site they have a section about destroying crop residue within 30 days, preferably 15 to prevent insects building resistance. So, they know it will happen and they are fine with it. I suppose by advising destruction of the residue they are setting up to say "well someone misused our product, not our fault". And if you followed the directions then you have no evidence left.  |
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Post by reed on Nov 26, 2014 5:34:06 GMT -5
Yea, I never thought of that. I didn't waste a lot of time reading their stuff but I think it is like their other things where it is mostly for commercial growers that have to sign lots of agreements just to buy it. I think most people in my neighborhood, those few that still grow anything, are way to small scale to mess with that kind of stuff.
The closest bigger corn patch to me is a beef farmer about 7 miles away also to the north east. He has about 30 acres of corn and three hundred a mix of woods and pasture. His corn is a yellow dent, I don't remember what kind but not GMO, he wants to move to organic and start saving his own seed so might end up a partner of sorts. The dairy farmer just five miles from me has been organic for years. If I could produce enough seed in a few years AND if it is good for people and cows... don't hurt to dream.
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Post by Carol Deppe on Nov 26, 2014 9:05:58 GMT -5
Carol, sorry I'm not more up to speed on proper designations for the different genes, is EH the same thing as what I referred to as se? You're the one who is correct. se is the name of the gene. The first varieties released using it were called the Everlasting Heritage series, or EH. I suddenly slipped a few decades. It happens. |
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Post by Carol Deppe on Nov 26, 2014 9:13:45 GMT -5
Yea, I never thought of that. I didn't waste a lot of time reading their stuff but I think it is like their other things where it is mostly for commercial growers that have to sign lots of agreements just to buy it. I think most people in my neighborhood, those few that still grow anything, are way to small scale to mess with that kind of stuff. Seminis does not sell to the home garden or retail seed trade at all. So yes, it is just big commercial growers who buy directly from the factor who are buying that seed. This does mean, however, that the sweet corn someone buys in the farmer's market could be GMO. I've been encouraging people to ask their market managers to require anyone who sells GMO sweet corn or other vegetables to say so, as this is certainly not what people go to farmer's markets for. |
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Post by reed on Nov 26, 2014 19:25:18 GMT -5
Well, there is something I saw here that I wasn't really ready to deal with because learning new things so often complicates a situation but I figured it might be important so I looked it up. Backcrossing, sounded pretty simple but didn't exactly understand how it worked. This www.extension.org/pages/32449/backcrossing-backcross-bc-populations-and-backcross-breeding#.VHZlezHF_dd has an article by Mathew Robbins from Ohio State that explains it pretty good. The graphic shows how each generation an F1 is crossed back to one of the parents the result has 1/2 of the previous parent, keep doing that until you have mostly the one parent left but with the trait you wanted from the other. Rather like a radioactive half life. So just for example to see if I understand correctly, if I detasseled some Painted Mountain and let Big Red pollinate it (or the other way around) I would end up with an F1 at least some of which should have Big Red's delicious pericarp. Then if I took that F1 the next year and some more Painted Mountain and detasseled either of them I would end up with another generation, this time 25% Big Red instead of the 50% of the F1. And so on until very little Big Red was left. Big Red is so distinctive it would be easy to select for in each generation and easy to see that the dark red was being maintained but how would that work if the desired trait wasn't easy to see? ****Got some more for this post but my dog hasn't come home for supper and she has never done this before, so I gotta go.
I'm back. The bad news is she was caught in a leg hold trap in the neighbors hay field. Good news is she seems to be OK, nothing broken. Gave her some turkey giblets we used to make broth and she is in her bed, her mood is happy as ever. I can hardly believe I found her, logic said not to try till daylight but something said go look anyway, so glad I did.****
Back to this backcrossing thing. It occurs to me it is mostly useful when you know for sure a specific trait you want incorporated into a specific variety but what about if that isn't all or even the most important thing you want to do? Might it not be more productive if your goal is more of a landrace to keep crossing the F1 with itself and letting conditions select for what works, especially if you have multiple different F1s with multiple combinations of mothers and fathers? Then after two or three years of that start selecting for flavors, uses, and other traits you like? |
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