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Post by templeton on Nov 13, 2014 15:31:44 GMT -5
I would love this lot to be untangled. Over the last couple of years I've been collecting up some potato onions and topsets - this year was to be the side by side comparison, but a lack of water in my assessment garden means I'm going to have to wait another year - and they were all looking so robust, too.
I was thinking on this thread as I was looking at my plot yesterday - would the topsets form larger bulbs if I thinned the bunches? mine are lucky to get 1cm across.
Templeton.
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Post by philagardener on Nov 13, 2014 19:23:43 GMT -5
4 2 or 2 4 T?  Nov 12, 2014 22:28:03 GMT -5 templeton said: (...and that's 2,4 D I think Phila...but why are we talking about defoliants all of a sudden? Nothing of the sort, just asking in tongue "Tea for two, or two for Tea"  Sorry to be cryptic . . . |
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Post by templeton on Nov 13, 2014 21:34:07 GMT -5
4 2 or 2 4 T? Nov 12, 2014 22:28:03 GMT -5 templeton said: (...and that's 2,4 D I think Phila...but why are we talking about defoliants all of a sudden? Nothing of the sort, just asking in tongue "Tea for two, or two for Tea" Sorry to be cryptic . . . Sorry my joke reply was even more cryptic  (was trying to figure out something even smarter with Agents and Oranges in it, but not sharp enough...)- and it did take a few moments to figure out what you were on about... T |
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 14, 2014 8:01:29 GMT -5
So anyone know of a great resource listing walking onion types OR/AND we should post our varieties with descriptors (assuming this hasn't already been done and I just missed it). Keeping in mind climatic variations etc… of course.
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Post by templeton on Nov 14, 2014 16:17:54 GMT -5
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Post by paquebot on Nov 14, 2014 17:02:16 GMT -5
There are only two basic types of topsetting onions. One propagates mainly by producing topsets and the other by bulb division. The first is the most common and there are probably only a dozen or so distinct varieties, if there are even that many. Most of what is available is originally from the common Red Egyptian and mutants from there. Catawissa is most common and that was a sport from the original Egyptian. The one which was here in 1963 was probably Catawissa when started but may have mutated to a slightly larger version for some reason. Since they don't normally make fertile seeds, there's no way of crossing to breed for better qualities. They are basically what you see is what you get.
They also have proven to be a fad with gardeners over the past 15 years. Everyone wanted to get in on Heritage Sweet when it was "discovered" about 10 or 12 years ago. The idea of having a perennial onion which may produce 120 divisions in one season was mind-boggling to anyone who liked scallions. I knew of one person who planted a huge number with the idea of getting rich off the topsets. If he got rich, it was only for a couple seasons. Gardeners soon found that what they got the second year was onion grass and then nothing as it would multiply itself to death. It was a perennial but had to be planted fresh every year or it would simply vanish. What wasn't widely known was that they had to be cultivated different if for eating or topsets as could not have both from one planting. Bunches were pulled for scallions or single plants left for topsets. Even a problem there as the topsets had a very short shelf life and only the largest could last through a winter under normal home storage. Just like common onions, sweet ones do not have good storage capabilities and that holds true with Heritage Sweets.
The main thing to remember about growing topset onions is that they "walk" for a good reason. That reason is because they can't even live with themselves!
Martin
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 14, 2014 17:55:06 GMT -5
What about those A. xproliferum that use bulb division - I take it that they are also sterile crosses then. I only have a red top setting with large bases and bulbs. So far: Red topset (or whatever it's proper name is): fewer, larger top sets, occasional double tiers, some flowers - always blank, large dividing base bulbs. High vigour Catawissa: potential for many tiers Heritage Sweet Fleener's Topset: white top sets as well as 2-3 inch white bulbils (Heritage Harvest Seed; Heirloom Onion) MCullar's White Topset (Heritage Harvest Seed) Dakota Red Winter Onion (Heirloom Onion) Grandma Pfeifer: red topsets (Heirloom Onion) Heritage White (Heirloom Onion) Jefferson's Hanging Onion: red (Heirloom Onion) Polish Purple: red topsets (Heirloom Onion) West Texas Topset: white (Heirloom Onion) Let's keep going  |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 14, 2014 20:15:31 GMT -5
Let's keep going If I remember right, two growers on this forum have reported obtaining true seeds from Egyptian onions, and successfully growing offspring from them. I think that in both cases A. Cepa was flowering nearby. |
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 14, 2014 20:59:36 GMT -5
I'm happy to let A. cepa flower near by if that's what it takes. Interesting.
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Post by templeton on Nov 15, 2014 18:14:19 GMT -5
Martin,
are you including A.cepa perutile (which is what I think it is I'm growing)? I'm pretty sure I've reported this over on the Cattawissa thread - my topsets never produce basal bulbs, (they do swell a bit, producing a slightly thickened elongated base about as thick as the end of my thumb at best) and never die right back, and thrive if left unattended for years. They are multi tiered, and occasionally produce flowers - stringent debulbiling of the flowering topset produced 1 or 2 seeds. I'm pretty sure no A.cepa were flowering nearby, but I must confess I'm not 100% - brain too full.
Would love to know what it is I'm growing.
T
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Post by paquebot on Nov 15, 2014 21:47:25 GMT -5
According to a quick Internet scan, A. cepa perutile is a bunching onion type which never flowers but does produce topsets. That would make it the same general type as Heritage Sweet. That is, producing a lot of scallions but no bulbs.
Martin
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 16, 2014 8:37:13 GMT -5
We need to disentangle the nomenclature for sure.
Lots of onions (in my experience) produce top sets especially if the flowering head is damaged and then just sometimes because. For example, I have a A. caereleum that is a bulbiling rather than flowering type.
So it would be helpful to figure out which top setting onions are Allium cepa 'perutile' versus the cross between Allium cepa x fistulosum (xproliferum) and what kind of characteristics might distinguish them if possible. Also, how many hybridizing events between cepa and fistulosum may there have been, I wonder? I should do some more internet searching as these are fascinating questions to me.
Most of what I've read suggests that Cattawissa is a sport from another A. xproliferum but then again, I'm not sure.
Mine does have a short dormant phase and does produce basal bulbs.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Nov 16, 2014 10:07:34 GMT -5
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 16, 2014 11:11:37 GMT -5
Thanks Joseph.
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Post by ottawagardener on Nov 16, 2014 11:16:56 GMT -5
Just had a look at the thread and like the tree. Thanks for the further detail on A. cepa types too. As for top setting onions of the xproliferum type, the thread suggests that: It may be the case that bulbing cepa x fistulosum = top setting bulbing types and bunching cep x fistulosum = top setting non bulbing types. Okay, that makes sense. Also looks like someone else on that thread is interested in the same technique that we are/you-all have been talking about. I guess I'd also love to see a document detailing the differences and instances (if possible) of A. xproliferum. And to find out which of the A. xproliferum work best in bulb onion production experiments or how to manipulate them culturally to explore their potential. |
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Sorry to be cryptic . . .
(was trying to figure out something even smarter with Agents and Oranges in it, but not sharp enough...)- and it did take a few moments to figure out what you were on about...
