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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 10, 2015 14:01:41 GMT -5
QAL is usually white, and white is dominant. If you don't grow any whites, those that appear are crossed and you can cull them. Growth habit is usually different too. Depends on where you are. I seem to remember reading that there are places where the dominant QAL root color is actually purple/black like parts of Turkey (i.e. where most of the purple/black domestic carrots come from) And I seem to recall reading that the orange color we are familiar with in carrots actually first showed up in wild populations, and had to be bred into the domestic one. QAL actually has one other use for me, from time to time. Because it is tough, naturalized, vigorous, and above all, free, it comes in very handy those years I decide I want to raise swallowtail caterpillars, and reach that point in the year when they have started eating so much that they outstrip the growth of any parsley dill etc. I have planted for them (until I see it every year, I cannot believe just how much one caterpillar can eat.) Having a large field of QAL nearby is sort of like having a huge pile of carrot tops. And I don't have to worry about crossing since I don't grow domestic carrots Our rocky soil means that domestic carrots tend to come out looking like QAL anyway (the last time I got a carrot that actually looked like a carrot I had to seed them in a tub of potting mix which is not exactly conducive to heavy growing). |
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Post by 12540dumont on Jan 10, 2015 16:20:21 GMT -5
I'm glad all you can easily tell hemlock from QAL. Just remember, there are folks without a sense of smell, so please show lots of ways in which they are different.
One of the easiest ways to grow carrots if you have QAL, is to chop off the tops (leave an inch of green), chop off the top inch of the carrot head. Eat the rest, plant the head with the short top. If you process a whole bunch of carrots the same day, it's easy. Also quicker to get regrowth than planting seed. I'm not sure how many times you can do this with the same carrot. You can do the same thing with beets, parsnips and onions. Someone must have tried others too?
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Post by ilex on Jan 10, 2015 18:54:49 GMT -5
QAL is usually white, and white is dominant. If you don't grow any whites, those that appear are crossed and you can cull them. Growth habit is usually different too. Depends on where you are. I seem to remember reading that there are places where the dominant QAL root color is actually purple/black like parts of Turkey (i.e. where most of the purple/black domestic carrots come from) And I seem to recall reading that the orange color we are familiar with in carrots actually first showed up in wild populations, and had to be bred into the domestic one. It's true, QAL can be deep purple, but unless you are in near East Asia, odds are low. Obviously, it can cross with cultivated carrots and end up any color. I think a crossed one won't be as competitive as a wild one, and won't succeed as easily in most places. Otherwise, we would find orange QAL all the time. My point is that you can mostly detect and cull crossed roots, so you can produce seed even if QAL is present. What I've read is that orange carrots were a mutation in cultivated stock, and selected for novel looks!, and because they don't stain. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 10, 2015 19:18:03 GMT -5
I don't think red stains either, but as they are somewhat rarer than white or yellow, maybe it's simply a matter of that mutation not showing up in the European scene (most of the older red and pink carrots seem to come from places like India)
You actually bring up a good point. Since, by definition any crossing is as likely to happen in the other direction (i.e. a domestic carrot is just as likely to pollinate a QAL as vice-versa) why AREN'T there a lot of orange rooted QAL plant's around? I can only assume that white is SO dominant to orange that any orange DNA in the mix is quickly covered up and swamped out.
Oh and if you are doing this cross I think or purple is incompletely dominant to If I recall the De Djerba carrot from Tunisia that Kokopelli sells is of mixed parentage and the root ratio is supposed to be 1/4 black, 1/2 purple and 1/4 orange, which sounds like a standard incomplete. Red I don't know.
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Post by paquebot on Jan 10, 2015 19:28:10 GMT -5
Castanea said it all. Edible and palatable are two different things. A few years ago, a person offered purple carrot seed that he had obtained in Iraq. I had plenty of garden space at the time and planted a double row about 15' long. Didn't take long before it was apparent that they were everything except consistent in growth. Then a large percentage bolted and were pulled as soon as noted. Those had the skinny roots like QAL and colors varied. When all were dug in October, most were skinny no matter if white or purple and few were edible by normal carrot standards. Perhaps 5% were probably what the seed was supposed to be.
Martin
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Post by ilex on Jan 10, 2015 19:39:00 GMT -5
Castanea said it all. Edible and palatable are two different things. A few years ago, a person offered purple carrot seed that he had obtained in Iraq. I had plenty of garden space at the time and planted a double row about 15' long. Didn't take long before it was apparent that they were everything except consistent in growth. Then a large percentage bolted and were pulled as soon as noted. Those had the skinny roots like QAL and colors varied. When all were dug in October, most were skinny no matter if white or purple and few were edible by normal carrot standards. Perhaps 5% were probably what the seed was supposed to be. Martin And some of those black/deep purple varieties are not intended for eating, they are for juice, or processing in different ways. You don't care if it's woody, or skiny, if you are after juice. I think Black Turkish is one of them. With so much diversity in that region, they must have much better carrots for "normal uses". |
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Post by ilex on Jan 10, 2015 19:48:19 GMT -5
I don't think red stains either, but as they are somewhat rarer than white or yellow, maybe it's simply a matter of that mutation not showing up in the European scene (most of the older red and pink carrots seem to come from places like India) You actually bring up a good point. Since, by definition any crossing is as likely to happen in the other direction (i.e. a domestic carrot is just as likely to pollinate a QAL as vice-versa) why AREN'T there a lot of orange rooted QAL plant's around? I can only assume that white is SO dominant to orange that any orange DNA in the mix is quickly covered up and swamped out. Oh and if you are doing this cross I think or purple is incompletely dominant to If I recall the De Djerba carrot from Tunisia that Kokopelli sells is of mixed parentage and the root ratio is supposed to be 1/4 black, 1/2 purple and 1/4 orange, which sounds like a standard incomplete. Red I don't know. I was reading about purple genetics a few minutes ago. This is interesting Yellow and Purple carrot genetics [pdf] In Spain, old carrots were mostly purple (black), or yellow. I've heard stories of red ones, but never saw one here. They call this one red, (lavender or light purple to me), so who knows what they were talking about:  Weeding this week, I saw one of those with yellow core (in my landrace). |
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Post by philagardener on Jan 10, 2015 20:07:09 GMT -5
A few years ago, a person offered purple carrot seed that he had obtained in Iraq. . . Perhaps 5% were probably what the seed was supposed to be. So how did those taste in the end, and did they breed true or did things continue to segregate wildly? |
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Post by ilex on Jan 10, 2015 20:41:32 GMT -5
Photo of a good landrace:  From Spain. Don't ask for seed as I'm still looking for them. |
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Post by blueadzuki on Jan 10, 2015 21:28:50 GMT -5
I don't think red stains either, but as they are somewhat rarer than white or yellow, maybe it's simply a matter of that mutation not showing up in the European scene (most of the older red and pink carrots seem to come from places like India) You actually bring up a good point. Since, by definition any crossing is as likely to happen in the other direction (i.e. a domestic carrot is just as likely to pollinate a QAL as vice-versa) why AREN'T there a lot of orange rooted QAL plant's around? I can only assume that white is SO dominant to orange that any orange DNA in the mix is quickly covered up and swamped out. Oh and if you are doing this cross I think or purple is incompletely dominant to If I recall the De Djerba carrot from Tunisia that Kokopelli sells is of mixed parentage and the root ratio is supposed to be 1/4 black, 1/2 purple and 1/4 orange, which sounds like a standard incomplete. Red I don't know. I was reading about purple genetics a few minutes ago. This is interesting Yellow and Purple carrot genetics [pdf] In Spain, old carrots were mostly purple (black), or yellow. I've heard stories of red ones, but never saw one here. They call this one red, (lavender or light purple to me), so who knows what they were talking about: Weeding this week, I saw one of those with yellow core (in my landrace). I tend to suspect most "red" or pink carrots are ones with a single dose of purple over white while the purple and blackish ones have yellow or orange as a base usually. As far as I have seen, carrots that are purple or red "to the core" are pretty uncommon, and most of them are like the middle eastern juicing carrots (i.e. they are basically the core and nothing else) As for my own red growing, the last time I did that was with that tub experiment I mentioned. At that time I was using an Indian cultivar, or at least I think I was (it was the "cat knocked over my carrot seed mix" that Amishland Seeds used to offer, so I was probably was seeing what is now known as Deshi Pink.) It looked pretty red to me, but then again I only got one sizable root out of that experiment, and I didn't ever get to see the inside of it (I gave it to my grandmother, since it seemed to me at the time the best way to get some lycopene into the diet of a person who had a solanine allergy. Whether she ate it or not, I have no clue. And since she's been dead for several years now, it's a bit late to ask her.) |
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Post by paquebot on Jan 11, 2015 0:33:19 GMT -5
A few years ago, a person offered purple carrot seed that he had obtained in Iraq. . . Perhaps 5% were probably what the seed was supposed to be. So how did those taste in the end, and did they breed true or did things continue to segregate wildly? There were a lot of QAL growing in a fenceline not far away. Since what I was growing already looked mostly like various versions of QAL, wasn't interested in producing more. If these were for juice, I doubt if I would have gotten a gallon from the 30 running feet. Many were so woody as to almost be considered wood. Few swelled to thicker than my little finger. It was easy to pick out those which were palatable as I could snap the tip off. The others broke off. There is a difference. Martin |
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Post by ilex on Jan 11, 2015 3:52:24 GMT -5
I think that each layer has it's own color genetics, and that there are a few modifier genes.
Once I lift my carrots I should learn more. So far, I've seen that lavender in a yellow carrot so it's probably independent to flesh color. Let's see how it looks like with orange.
I've seen black on white and black on orange, and black of different thickness. From just the skin, to the core, with various bleeding degrees. In this board, somebody is working on ringed carrots.
I should have black x yellow crosses. We'll see what they look like.
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Post by blackox on Jan 11, 2015 16:37:52 GMT -5
This thread is starting to get interesting, if it wasn't already. I've never heard of lavender carrots. And I would agree that each layer has it's own color genetics. We fast on carrot juice, but only very occasionally. We'll have to start drinking more. Maybe I'll just use my mixed population for juice and any newly-planted varieties for eating.
Ilex, I can't see your photo for some reason. Good luck with your search.
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Post by castanea on Jan 11, 2015 21:39:42 GMT -5
Two years ago I planted seeds from about 7 or 8 different varieties of purple or black carrots. Most of these were originally from Turkiey, Spain or Russia alhough I did grow a few American types (less than 10%). I pulled out a few carrots that first year and saw a great deal of variation in growth habits and taste. This year the rest flowered. After they flowered, random seeds started sprouting up nearby. These two, less than 90 days old, were among that second generation:  |
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Post by ilex on Jan 13, 2015 3:21:33 GMT -5
Most QAL is annual (low chill requirement to bolt), and it seems that low/high chill requirement is controlled by a single dominant gene. Low/high can be as diverse as 1-12 weeks.
If I got it rigth, it goes as follows: Once passed the juvenile state, plant counts cold, and once a given quantity is reached, if days get longer, it will bolt. I've noticed crossed plants bolt earlier (around March here).
I will test some Spanish varieties I believe are annuals, planting them in may, instead of july-october.
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