Lagenaria: Bottle Gourds

[Joseph Lofthouse]

A thread dedicated to the Lagenaria species. These are commonly known as bottle gourds or birdhouse gourds. They are eaten when very young as summer squash. Their main use is as decorative gourds or containers because they have a thick fibrous shell when mature and thin flesh that dries easily.

I was talking to a farmer last fall that was whining about how he didn't want to grow Lagenaria gourds because of the poor germination and high cost of the seed. I also get low germination of lagenaria seed. But I let the comment drop away to wherever it is that not-yet-mature ideas go to. Then I was at seed school, and one of the instructors commented about the low germination rates of Lagenaria seeds.

So I came home and reviewed the literature on Lagenaria seed germination. It looks like the seed germinates best after about 10 days of fermentation in anaerobic conditions (put the seeds in a plastic bag and bury them).

Effect of fruit age, pre-storage and seed fermentation durations on seed germination and seedling vigor in Lagenaria siceraria
"The results suggest that in deaginous L siceraria, fruits must be harvested 50 DAA, pre-stored up to 60 DPA. Good agronomic quality seeds must have yellow-orange color and be fermented up to 10 days."

Effects of seed fermentation method on seed germination and vigor in the oleaginous gourd Lagenaria siceraria (Molina) Standl.
"Low seed quality was observed in unfermented seed..."
"The highest values {...} were obtained when seeds were fermented after cutting and packing the fruits into plastic bag, and then hidden under ground in 30 cm depth (SFD)."
"best germination and vigor were obtained with seed fermented in anaerobic, darkness, and relatively low temperature (26°C) conditions "

Seed Development and Germination Enhancement in Bottle Gourd (Lagenaria seceraria Standl.)
The fermentation of fruit locule with microbial solution prior to seed extraction {...} resulted in enhanced germination. {After 9 days of fermentation germination increased from 9% to 65%}

I fermented seeds from a Lagenaria squash this fall. The yellow-orange color mentioned is very obvious when the seed is wet. The orange/yellow seed dries to grey instead of white.

I have been growing Lagenaria since 2010. Germination has been spotty. Some varieties only grew vines a foot long before the fall frosts. But I have been able to grow fruits and save seeds for some generations now. I haven't had any sort of breeding goals in mind. I've just been content to have the species in my garden. Survival-of-the-fittest has been the only selection criteria: It had to produce seed.

Today I determined a breeding goal for Lagenaria in my garden... I will work towards domesticating the seed. By that I mean finding genetics and methods which lead to lowered germination inhibitions, so that the seed can be grown like any other squash. Just planted in the garden and a couple days later it has germinated vigorously and is growing robustly. Seems like poor germination is currently the biggest agricultural problem with this species.

Lagenaria is in the same sub-tribe as watermelon and Bryonia.

Now that Lagenaria has it's own thread I thought that I'd pull together some previous posts about it...

Oct 13, 2014 19:23:06 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

I planted a 45 foot row and harvested about 9 fruits... I ate lagenaria squash this summer. It was very flavorful as expected from the smell, but it was not unpleasant as I had expected.

Aug 16, 2014 22:46:12 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

The most interesting UV markers I found were on the lagenaria squash:

Jul 10, 2014 23:42:25 GMT -5 oldmobie said:

Bottle Gourds (whose seeds the duck failed to eat):

I gotta wonder if the ducks really got the seed, or if the species was just doing it's typical thing of poor germination.

Jun 28, 2014 23:46:09 GMT -5 oldmobie said:

I googled that genus. They look like gourds I've grown in the past. Some of them had a very distinctive looking seed.

Oct 26, 2013 1:12:32 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

This is the second/third generation of Lagenaria squash grown in my garden. They don't seem particularly well adapted Maybe that's cause they were planted just at the edge of my irrigation system and if the wind was blowing too hard they missed getting watered sometimes. But in other years they have likewise struggled while adequate water. At least this year every plant produced offspring. The first time I planted them many varieties didn't even flower. I really aught to try eating one of them as a summer squash.

Oct 7, 2011 1:31:43 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

Lagenaria gourd: No fruits produced. Vine length reached about a foot.

Birdhouse/Bottle lagenaria gourd: Some plants produced semi-mature fruits.

Jun 15, 2011 5:52:35 GMT -5 Hristo said:

Years ago grafting watermelons on to gourd (Lagenaria) was common here because they ripen 1-2 weeks earlier. Latter on this practice was abandoned and I do not know why. Probably this lowers the quality of fruit, but I'm not completely sure, I should ask someone to confirm.

Aug 11, 2007 23:28:12 GMT -5 johno said:

One exception is a type of Lagenaria grown by Indians in the Southwest as a trap crop for cucumber beetles. They bust a hole in the side of the gourds, (which are supposed to look a bit like the Bushel gourd,) and the little buggers are drawn to the attractive chemical. This chemical is present in most cucurbits, but is in high concentrations in this one. Or so I am told - we'll see how it goes...

There were a few more Lagenaria gourds in 2011 than I wanted for seed so I shared 5 fruits with the neighbors.


My 2010 squash harvest contained a few Lagenaria gourds.

[bunkie]

Thanks for this thread Joseph! I planted bottle gourds for a few years when we first moved here and never had trouble with germinating. But, I sent some seed to Tom K. and not one germinated! This is very interesting.

[mskrieger]

Hm. I'm going to try growing Lagenaria this year. Not the goose-neck ones that you show (that's what we call those around here--goose-necked. Oftentimes the small bulb at the end has an elegant tilt like a swan or goose's head),but a different variety. Got the seed from Fedco. I'll let you know how they do here.

[rowan]

I LOVE growing hardshell gourds but I only grow half a dozen each year because they are so wasteful - the amount of space and water they use and you only get a few fruits from each *sigh*

I have found that my seed germinates at around 75% and I get better results if I sow direct with 2 seeds in each hole.




The bottom picture is a giant kettle gourd which is huge but I don't have the measurements right now. Unfortunately the vines only produce one of theses each. I am going to put in a heap of miniatures next year to see if they will sell to people who want to make salt and pepper shakers and christmas tree decorations out of them, at least those vines produce a heap of fruit each.

[oldmobie]

This new thread got me thinking about my gourds I left drying in the barn. I see two ways to look at saving seeds from last year. On the one hand, two vines survived. If I save seed from both, they're both represented. On the other hand, each fruit means a seperate pollination, so diversity should increase (at least a little) if I save from more fruits, right? So I selected the fruits I like the look of: the biggest fruits, with each fruit shape represented. There were only variations in the shape of the "knob" at the stem end. Four fruits in all. The question is: does the pollen source help determine size and shape, or am I looking at purely maternal factors, with little to no bearing on diversity?

For what it's worth, I just bought seeds for a long necked dipper gourd, so whatever the answer to my question is, diversity should increase in the future.

[Day]

Bumping this thread to get some Lagenaria siceraria advice from those who have grown them / know them.

The back of my house is south-facing and poorly insulated. No windows along the whole wall. It absolutely cooks in our 100+ degree summers. I've been flirting with the idea of constructing a squash trellis up the back and into the roof. Too hot for beans. Did mammoth sunflowers last year, but they dried down too fast. And they bent towards the sun, producing even less shade as they grew taller. So I figured I'd try squash. After much thought however I've realized the last thing I need are any more squash projects, and I certainly don't need to go clamoring onto the roof to do cross pollinations or have to bag my current squash projects to avoid contamination.

So I've been thinking about using Lagenaria siceraria gourds instead.

Ideal variety would be one with lone vines, big leaves, and small/light fruit. The fruit would simply be a by product of the shading qualities of the plant. The trellis will be nylon netting, not wood or cattle panel. The narrow gap between the back of my house and the fence (which you'd think would cast some shadow on the house, but just doesn't quite reach it in summer) doesn't allow for much maneuvering, and constructing something heavy and permanent in out of the question.

I'd love any insight ya'll may have into varieties that have worked for you, or not. Or even if you know of any seed sources for smaller sized gourds. Something the size of the Tennessee Spinner/Dancing 'gourd' would be ideal, if only it weren't from the pepo family.

[mskrieger]

Fedco is offering a variety of Lagenaria called “Corsican Canteen “ The fruits are supposed to be the shape of small lidded bowls. I’m planning on growing it this year...maybe would work for you?

[blueadzuki]

Don't know where, but they do exist. I've seen pictures of bottle gourds as small as peanuts online.

Actually, I may have some seed for one that fits in the palm of the hand around somewhere, I'll check.

[walt]

There are gourds that have been bred down to use as earrings. But on those the seeds are necessarily small and I suspect the whole plant is.
About 20 years ago, I went with my sister, who is a gourd artist, to the national gourd show. Everyone who I asked about seeds said go to the Rocky Ford booth. Those are the best.
So I found their booth and when they weren't busy, I talked with them. Mainly I listened. They had a lot to tell.
Back decades before that, they had been at a gourd convention, and had met and among other things the discussed how hard it was to find seed that grew the kind of gourds they were sold as, And most didn't germinate, and many kinds weren't available at all. And they decided to do something about it.
First they contacted squash breeders for advice. They couldn't find any gourd breeders. So they learned everything about bagging the flowers before they opened, hand pollinating, and re-bagging until the flowers fell off. Etc. They learned it all. They found every kind gourd they had heard or read of, and they started selling seed. They guarentinted 80% germination. They refused to sell any seed that didn't have 90% germination.
So when I was talking with them, they were old. some had died. They were looking for people to take up where they were going to have to leave off.
So I made a deal with them to grow gourd seeds the next summer. I planned to live off gourd seed the rest of my life.
At harvest, I counted my seed. It looked like $40,000 worth of seed.
After discarding those that didn't have 90% germination, I made $2,000. Bummer.
They were upset as they had planned on having my seed to help fill orders. I was upset because I had dedicated 6 months or more to producing the best possible seed. It hurt.
The next year I was allotted one variety to multiply. Again germination was low. We worked together studying the problem, but never found the reason for poor germination of my seed. I will say that the rest of the group were in cooler, more humid parts of the country. I suspect that was part of the problem. I don't know.

While That summer was a bust financially, otherwise it was great.  I spent the summer in my garden.  Three times a day I'd grab some bread from the car which was parked by the garden, and load the bread with leaves, beet, reddish, turnip, dill, basil, fennel, New Zealand spinach.  Whatever came to hand.  With the sandwich I'd have a pepper or tomato in the other hand.  An ear of corn went well with it.  A melon for dessert.  Wednessday I'd take my laundry into town and have some meat at a resturant.  Sundays I'd go into town and meet with the Unitarians and have some meat with lunch.  Afternoons in July I would bag flower buds.  Dusk the flowers would start opening and I'd pollinate until about midnight.  Then I'd lay under the stars until I dozed off until morning.  Life was wonderful.  But $2,000 per 6 months wasn't going to make land payments.  Bummer.

[Day]

mskrieger - Thanks for the tip! I'll go browse and see what they got.

blueadzuki - yeah I've seen super duper tiny ones, but they are usually C. pepo not Lagenaria. I'm doing a pepo breeding project at the moment, so it'd be easier not to risk contamination by adding another one.

If you happen to have any 'hand held' size seeds, I'd definitely trade you for them! One of the biggest turn offs of buying gourd seeds is that I'll probably only need two or three seeds total. And after that I can save seeds, so yea... if you (or anyone else) has some they'd be willing pass off/trade for, I'd be much obliged!

walt - thank you for sharing that story, it was both inspiring and entertaining. While facts about vegetables can be useful, it's the human stories that surround them that give context and meaning to it all. I appreciate that.

From what little I've read, it seems that germination is a huge issue in Lagenaria. I wonder if it has something to do with the difficult conditions the seeds in the wild would endure, which is to say, how long would it take a wild dried gourd to break/rot/deteriorate enough for the seeds to even have a chance at light?

[steev]

Considered chayote?

[zeedman]

steev beat me to it. In your climate, chayote might be a better alternative than bottle gourds. I grew them in San Diego & San Jose - they are very strong climbers. You will also get a huge yield of very delicious squash from them, much more useful than the young gourds.

Malabar gourd (Cucurbita ficifolia, a.k.a. Fig leaf Gourd, Chilacayote, and Shark Fin Melon) would be another possibility. It too is a rampant climber; I've seen photos elsewhere of small trees overrun by vines. It is well suited to the climate of the Southwest U.S., and it too would produce a good yield of squash.

Both of these squashes are perennial, so you would get to enjoy them for many years.

[Day]

Jan 7, 2018 21:20:27 GMT -5 steev said:

Considered chayote?

Jan 8, 2018 0:41:05 GMT -5 zeedman said:

steev beat me to it. In your climate, chayote might be a better alternative than bottle gourds. I grew them in San Diego & San Jose - they are very strong climbers. You will also get a huge yield of very delicious squash from them, much more useful than the young gourds.

Malabar gourd (Cucurbita ficifolia, a.k.a. Fig leaf Gourd, Chilacayote, and Shark Fin Melon) would be another possibility. It too is a rampant climber; I've seen photos elsewhere of small trees overrun by vines. It is well suited to the climate of the Southwest U.S., and it too would produce a good yield of squash.

Both of these squashes are perennial, so you would get to enjoy them for many years.

I'd love to grow Chayote, and someday when I own my own property I definitely intend to. As of now, there are a few problems with growing a perennial like chayote at my current place. Firstly, I really need shade by April, and most severely in June - September. I've heard they grow decently fast once established, even up to 30ft a season, but probably not fast enough this first season to cover a single story 15ft wall in a few months from seed. It would have to be an investment.

Secondly, I'm not really 'allowed' to put any permanent structures on the property. Ironically they probably wouldn't mind the Chayote itself, since they can't see it from the front house (where the landlord lives) but even so I'd probably need to construct a stronger trellis than what I have now, which is just nylon mesh that I staple gunned up to the fascia. Since I can cut it off super quick if the need arises, that's about as permanent as I can go for the moment, since I can't drill or screw anything into the exterior of the house itself, etc.
Thirdly, while I like this location, I'm not sure how long I'll be living here. It's definitely not my ideal long term abode, but it suits for the short term. This also deters me from planting a perennial.

Rent life - it is what it as.

That said, I'm not trying to poo-poo the idea at all. I'd truly love to grow chayote instead of gourds. It's just not really a possibility for my current living situation. So gourds are my second best option, as I see it now.

[mskrieger]

Hey all--just a grow report. I sowed Lagenaria "Corsican Canteen" seed from Fedco this year in my garden in June. They germinated and grew fast for me, and even had beautiful white night blooming flowers. But sadly the ultra wet weather gave them a bad case of powdery mildew and they succumbed in August.

I'm hoping to grow them again this year, sowing earlier and hopefully have a somewhat dryer season.

[mskrieger]

So I did sow again, and this year I had better luck. A little less rain, and I put the lagenaria with moschata squash, instead of Joseph Lofthouse's crazy aggressive maximoss. From 10 seeds I got 5 plants, which are growing and doing well. Already one fruit set that I can see, probably a bunch more that I can't. But walt you might be right about the seed quality...the fruit does not have the shape I expected it to have. Interesting. I'll save seed from the gourds that please me and see how the germination is next year.