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Post by steev on Mar 19, 2015 2:15:51 GMT -5
I have this landscaping business; people don't want to pay much for maintenance; mostly they want to pay what I pay my helpers, despite my offering an English-speaker who knows the cultural, climate, and plant resources of the Bay Area. That is to say: I know plants from weeds; dormant plants from dead ones; what grows well, here. So, as a result of slim profit margins, I wind up employing a lot of ignorant (understandable, but there it is) workers.
Last week, I started a young man from El Salvador (I spent a total of ~one year, across three, there in the 70's, watching the standard of living plummet; it was a country largely owned by ~13 families, who had no interest in any agriculture except what could be exported for profit; most of the produce for local consumption seemed imported from Guatemala). He said that the cost to bring him undocumented from El Salvador (which is ravaged by gangs, largely drug-related) was $18,000! Now, this isn't money he paid up-front. The way it works is that somebody here agrees to pay; the immigrant is brought in-country and kept in a "safe"-house until the money is paid, then he's free to seek employment to re-pay the debt (commonly to family members who fronted the money).
So, today, I told him to weed mint out from a sand-set patio; I came back to find that he'd chopped out the baby-tears that were supposed to fill between the flagstones; I pointed out the error; told him to clear the mattress vine out of the ivy along the fence; came back to find he'd sheared it all; pointed out the error; he then went on to busily rip out Campanula, thinking it a weed. At the end of the day, he informed me that he couldn't come tomorrow, Monday, nor Tuesday (doubtless he has a more lucrative offer). Not expecting payday until Thursday, I couldn't pay him off today, but tomorrow I'll give his pay to my other helper, who brought him to me, with instructions not to bring him again. It's an interesting cultural conflict, but I have a business to schedule, and I just can't do it with people who can't be counted on to come to work on a predictable schedule, nor can I do it with a constantly changing workforce, as there is a certain amount of training necessary, if one isn't going to be just "blow, mow, and go".
I realize that I'm less patient than I used to be, but damn!
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Post by rowan on Mar 19, 2015 3:23:16 GMT -5
Similar story with me, I have given up on offering placement to Wwoofers and the like simply because I just haven't been able to attract any who have any sort of interest at all in growing food so they tend to be a waste of space and food. I don't have the time or patience to kneel down with them and point out every single weed and them have them still not be able to tell the difference between said weeds and vegetable plants.
And I don't have the time of patience to continually watch over their shoulders to make sure they are watering properly and such.
In my ads I ask that only those with an interest in gardening and food growing apply but I still get those who either lie about knowing any gardening at all, or those who have picked apples for a week so think they are what I am looking for.
*sigh*
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Post by copse on Mar 19, 2015 14:19:08 GMT -5
Similar story with me, I have given up on offering placement to Wwoofers and the like simply because I just haven't been able to attract any who have any sort of interest at all in growing food so they tend to be a waste of space and food. I don't have the time or patience to kneel down with them and point out every single weed and them have them still not be able to tell the difference between said weeds and vegetable plants. And I don't have the time of patience to continually watch over their shoulders to make sure they are watering properly and such. In my ads I ask that only those with an interest in gardening and food growing apply but I still get those who either lie about knowing any gardening at all, or those who have picked apples for a week so think they are what I am looking for. *sigh* At permies.com, the people there have what they call the gapper dilemma which sounds very similar. There's some other thread where they talk about the problem getting people to clean up after themselves, and relate one story about how someone instead of doing the dishes, hid them around the house - not as a joke, but as their solution to the problem. |
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Post by templeton on Mar 19, 2015 18:38:32 GMT -5
Best of luck with any new workers you find, Steev.
Similar stories when i was a park ranger - I ended up turning down many volunteers, since all you could rely on them to do was low-quality work under constant supervision, while my critical jobs requiring expert knowledge ended up undone - nett result, quality of park declined with the addition of volunteer helpers...interesting paradox.
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Post by philagardener on Mar 19, 2015 18:43:43 GMT -5
Could be a global phenomenon!
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Post by steev on Mar 19, 2015 19:11:46 GMT -5
Best of luck with any new workers you find, Steev. Similar stories when i was a park ranger - I ended up turning down many volunteers, since all you could rely on them to do was low-quality work under constant supervision, while my critical jobs requiring expert knowledge ended up undone - nett result, quality of park declined with the addition of volunteer helpers...interesting paradox. That's my general experience, too. All too often I get somebody who doesn't know which hole to stick his thumb in, so he winds up wandering around, alternating from one to t'other, which can be disconcerting to those unused to the sorry spectacle. |
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Post by synergy on Mar 19, 2015 19:31:20 GMT -5
I hosted a woofer who was 18 mostly dealing with horses for three months and when their mother came to visit I asked her to take her offspring with her . I hosted another woofer with the understanding we were doing a broad range of things from gardening and fence mending to tending animals for 6 months and he was over 60 and fantastic. It is just getting the right person.
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Post by steev on Mar 19, 2015 23:02:33 GMT -5
Old guys often don't know "better" than to work; I sure don't. Cracks me up when a doctor asks how often I exercise. My brother (from another mother) is 12 years younger than I and does little exercise but golf; he's shorter, but probably outweighs me ~70#, all carried on his torso; I seriously expect to out-live him, which gives me no satisfaction, given that we have a pact that if one is vegging-out in a hospital, the other is pledged to come stand on the oxygen-line. Just my luck, I'll have to slide in with a walker. Nah! I'll be leaning on my 30-year-old "secretary"; she'll be helping me write my "memoirs", true stories made up from the past; you're only as old as other people think you are, and what do they know?
I conversed with a client today; he's 101+; he was concerned that his grandkids thought he should stop driving, to which he agreed; the reflexes go, etc. He thought he should surrender his driver's license at the DMV, but they'd said he couldn't have an appointment for three months; I asked why he needed to surrender it, couldn't he just not drive? Hadn't thought of that; keep the picture ID and all. So much for the over-burdened DMV and the waste of his time.
There was a program on NPR about centenarians and they mentioned that they tend not to dwell on their age; one guy was noted who was reported to respond, when asked about his age, "That's none of my business!" Right on!
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Post by diane on Mar 19, 2015 23:03:42 GMT -5
We have several horticultural colleges nearby, so it is easy to get enthusiastic, trained workers. They get paid decently, though. I haven't checked recently, but five years ago gardeners were making $25 an hour.
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Post by steev on Mar 19, 2015 23:48:32 GMT -5
I've charged $25/man-hour the past decade, during which time expenses have risen; I'm in the SF Bay Area; quite expensive, cost-of-living-wise; not a lot of hort-centric education nearby. The Great Recession of 2008 put a serious damper on real estate, which landscaping follows rather closely, both maintenance and renovation. I'm in the process of moving my rate to $30/man-hour, but it's not something that can happen overnight, relating to acceptance by old clients (as opposed to their loss) and gain of new clients.
Truly, I am re-evaluating my business model, not just in terms of my charges, but of my desire to continue at all, dealing with employees, clients, taxes, et al. Were it not for the lack of a house on the farm, I would probably blow off the business. So, there it is: get a house built; "retire" to continue working my ass off, but not for money, just the joy of life. "Just", I say. I've worked for a "living" for half a century; there are countries not that old.
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Post by 12540dumont on Mar 21, 2015 1:42:14 GMT -5
In 30 years of farming I have had 5 great folks come work for me.
Darcy, a young Italian Gal, who worked as easily in the kitchen as in the field. Casey a young gal who was part Native American who loved working the field, the harder the work the better, but could not stand being in the kitchen. Carlos, a young Hispanic man who could and would do anything. Hector, a middle aged Hispanic tile guy who was short of work during the recession. And Julia, an Italian woman who is 70 years old and can whop your ass. Yes, Steev, even yours.
In the beginning of the farm, everyone spent 3 hours in the field and one in the kitchen. Hey, veges don't wash themselves. They need trimming, bagging and sometimes more processing.
I gave up trying to find anyone who could do both.
I have had every kind of numbskull, lamebrain, drug addled, clodpate, meathead, nitwit, dork, dunce, lunkhead, simpleton, dodo and ignoramus come work at the farm. Finally, I couldn't take it anymore. The stress was too great.
Here's a few of the highlights.
1. Pick the veges and put them in the green waste with the weeds.
2. Pick the veges and leave them in the sun to wilt, while you go sit in the shade and play games on your cell phone.
3. Pick the wrong veges. Yes, let's pick the squash that takes 120 days and leave the gunboat zucchini, (because I'm too ignorant or embarrassed to say "I don't know what a zucchini is, can you show me?" Which of course you told me you know all about veges before even starting. Pick all the green tomatoes, because they're supposed to be green, right? (I can't find the potatoes I'm supposed to pick from row Z-12. There's no potatoes on the plants....dudette, no way they're underground? You're shitting me?
4. Pull out the plants that we put in together last weekend and leave the weeds. Because the plants came out easier than the weeds.
5. Ditch the plants you're supposed to be planting, so you don't have to do it. It's not like they'll know, right? This kid must have hid broccoli in his milk.
6. Leave the door to the chicken house open when you get done feeding, that way, we can spend the next 3 hours chasing chickens and you can go home early.
7. Pick the tomatoes, put them in the wrong truck, that way when we go to deliver the surprise of finding no tomatoes in the truck really livens up the day.
8. Make several holes in the irrigation with a hoe that you are NOT supposed to be using to weed. Then, don't tell anyone, that way 5000 gallons of water can leak away when the irrigation pump comes on at 9 p.m.
9. Don't show up for work for 3 days in a row, on day 4 show up with a time card indicating that you've been here weeding, but no one saw you.
10. Mow the flowers the day before they bloom, that way you don't have to weed them.
I could go on, but I'd have go the quack and ask for an anti-depressant. I have not been able to figure out if these folks are just too dumb, don't give a damn, or are sent by competitors to drive me mad. (Stark Looneytunes.)
Folks, I hope you're taking care of your own food, because many of the folks I have met do not know how the egg gets out of the chicken.
On the bright side. Darcy is at Cal Poly SLO, and is both smart as a tack, great cook and a knock out. (Some fellow is going to get the 1/2 punch and go down hard) Casey is in Texas and has her very first allotment, and wants to become a farmer. She's going to marry a chef, so she doesn't have to ever see the kitchen. No really, she learned to cook too.
Carlos was hired by the county. He's going to be an electrician/plumber or both. He enjoyed the work. Brought his grandfather over to see the farm. His grandfather was impressed. Hector answers my calls, but the tile business has picked up so he has no time for me.
Julia, is still the answer to all my prayers. She can work 2 hours before getting tired. But weeds fly in 2 hours. Grapes get pruned, flowers get planted and work gets done. At the end of the day, Julia, picks what's she's going to eat for lunch and goes home and makes it. She is the best thing since sliced bread. And who knew, she lived next door to me for 25 years!
She comes once a week knocks on the door and asks where we are working, what's on the program? She knows what tools we need, knows the difference between a holly hock and a malva...finally yes there is a difference.
The kids that come out from the college always tell me they want to be the supervisor. Leo thinks this is hysterical. Once he told a young man that he could be the supervisor, but he'd have to supervise himself. He left in a huff. I dunno, I gotta supervise myself. Some days I have to give myself a lecture and a good talking to.
I'm sorry Steev, if you were closer, I'd show up for work.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 21, 2015 3:34:04 GMT -5
Hey Holly. Could be worse... I had a guy that twisted the head off the irrigation pipe because he doesn't know his own strength when applied through a 4 foot cheater bar. And the guy that ran over the irrigation pipe with the tractor, and that bent pipes in half rather than brushing the morning glory off. And the guy that ran the rototiller through the fence. And the guy that didn't drink enough water during the work day so he had to be rescued from the field because of muscle craps that left him incapacitated. And the guy that just won't bend over to pull a weed. And the guy that irrigates irregularly no matter how much I whine at him about it. And the guy that won't write down when things are planted or harvested. And that is always misplacing seeds. Problem is that I can't get rid of him. No matter how many times I fire myself I always go back to work in the garden.
I got a lot of brownie points today by gifting my great-grandfather's Egyptian Onions to an acquaintance. That makes up for the help being what it is.
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Post by reed on Mar 21, 2015 5:12:34 GMT -5
I got one like Joseph's. Nearly cut his finger off building bean trellis. Hates to pick anything especially if it involves bending over and eats as much as he puts in the basket. Forgets where he planted things and plants something else on top of it. Thinks it's OK to run off and hide in the shade just because it's over 90 degrees. I don't even try to fire him anymore, he's always back at sunrise the next day anyway so at least he's punctual.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Mar 21, 2015 11:08:45 GMT -5
Hates to pick anything especially if it involves bending over and eats as much as he puts in the basket. Ha! I hate bending over to pick corn... Therefore, one of my plant breeding goals this year is to select for sweet corn that can be picked without bending over. (That's got a side benefit of being more skunk resistant.) |
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Post by 12540dumont on Mar 21, 2015 12:21:10 GMT -5
I'm going back to bed, you farmers make me tired.
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