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Post by littleminnie on Aug 15, 2015 18:10:23 GMT -5
This is by far the worst disease year ever. First of all I am being really careful of saving any seeds. I have some beans I'll save and lettuce but I think that's it. What can I do about the seeds saved last year? The big question is how do I start at my new house without bringing all the disease with me?! This is a big issue and I want to be really proactive and thorough.
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Post by steev on Aug 16, 2015 20:44:24 GMT -5
Be sure to boil the seeds to sterilize them.
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Post by philagardener on Aug 17, 2015 6:34:23 GMT -5
Stew carefully about your options . . .  It is important to know which diseases are involved and how they are transmitted. If you have a good county extension agent, they could be a resource for you. Many pathogens don't travel by seed, and effective treatments differ for those that do (for example, viruses vs. bacteria). Surface treatments with warm (controlled temperature) water or a dilute bleach solution can be helpful; I'd suggest treating right before sowing the seed, although you can carefully redry the treated seed for storage (test anything on a small batch first). Here is a "how-to" instruction sheet from OSU; skip the Thriam  at the end. I have not tried these approaches but they might help you out. Note that Chlorox recently was reformulated to change the the bleach concentration, so check your labels. Good luck!  |
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Post by templeton on Aug 17, 2015 7:32:37 GMT -5
It's going to be a seed by seed thing. Some can take rugged treatment, others are a bit more sensitive. Some treatments will kill a percentage of the seed, as well as the disease, so it will depend a bit on what sorts of losses you can put up with. Is any of the seed irreplaceable? If so, you could try a year of quarantine - grow out another small seed crop in a corner somewhere,and keep a close eye on it. If you aren't 100% against chemicals, you could try treatments that you find less offensive on the crop if a disease does appear.
I'm sure you are aware of fermenting as a way of reducing seed borne organisms.
Treating a seed with a chemical only results in small amounts ending up on your farm, compared with spraying a whole crop. Depends a bit on your attitudes to chemicals.
The alternative approach is to aim to breed varieties with horizontal resistance, but that's another whole story.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 17, 2015 10:32:35 GMT -5
littleminnie: Which diseases? Which species are affected? What vectors spread the diseases? Are you sure it's disease and not things like too much water? Or insects eating the roots/stems? Do you believe that the suppliers of new seed won't send you seed borne diseases? Why do you believe that your seed is more likely to be contaminated than commercial seed? I'd think that your seed is more likely to be clean. You at least looked at your fruits before harvest. From my perspective, I'd rather take my chances with my own locally adapted seed than with foreign seeds from unknown places with unknown diseases harvested by minimum wage (or less) laborers. Which diseases were blown into your garden on the wind? They will arrive in your new garden the same way... Which diseases are carried by insects? The insects will bring them to your new garden. Which diseases are brought in by bird or bat feces? They already exist in your new garden. I ask the questions in this way, to point out that there are lots of different diseases, and no disease affects all crops, but there may be specific diseases that affect specific crops or families. I could understand not taking specific crops to avoid specific pests... For example if you have nematodes that attack the garlic, then I might skip taking garlic bulbs, but I'd take bulbils. But if the garlic had Yellow Asters, then no big deal, because it has already overtaken your area and every future field will be affected. I might not take potato tubers, but I'd feel fine about starting fresh from true potato seeds.
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Post by reed on Aug 18, 2015 8:08:50 GMT -5
I don't grow for market so a loss of a particular thing in a particular year isn't as big a deal as it might be for some but I am starting to just stop caring about disease and just save seed from anything that produces in spite of it. Growing in the same small space for decades without any chemicals, I figure there is little chance every disease imaginable isn't already there, little short of a nuclear strike would eradicate it.
Take tomatoes for example, one of the most disease prone things there is, I think. I compost diseased vines, I start plants in dirt and compost from the garden and I don't see any more disease, if as much, than I did when I tried to follow all the cleanliness rules.
My most frustrating losses are to rabbits, coons, squirrels, chipmunks, bugs, rototillers, lawn mowers and the occasional roaming gang of delinquent chickens.
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Post by littleminnie on Aug 27, 2015 23:23:34 GMT -5
Sorry I missed replying to this.
Reed, my general MO has been to not worry about disease and save what does well anyway as you say. Now I have a lot of disease catching up with me this year.
Cercospora on the chenopods. I didn't know the beet spots were disease before and now this is really bad this year. I don't save beet or chard and no spinach overwintered so no spinach seed to save either.
Black rot on brassicas. Again I didn't take this seriously before and this year it is worse! I save kale seed and sometimes radish but not cabbage, cauliflower etc. I got a lot of cabbage seed in trade some years ago and hope that wasn't the 'patient 0' of the disease. Horseradish has it I think. I'm not sure what to do to bring it over in fall 2016 to new farm.
Bacterial spot (I think). I've had this on tomatoes and potatoes for some years. Unfortunately all the thousands of acres of potatoes around me seem to have it too. I swear the neighbor field on the other side of the woods (the Potato King) has crop dusted 10 times now including today! I am not saving seed taters this year and I am not saving tomato seed, but I have some tomato seed from previous that is unavailable anywhere else and I want to keep growing it without bringing the disease to the new farm.
Bacterial wilt on the melons and cukes was really bad this year but very much rain induced. I generally save both seeds but I'm not this year and will start fresh.
Leaf spot on the strawberries. They are producing anyway. They will be left at the old field and new brought into the new farm.
The sunflower landrace has something. Some are amazing this year but lots of loss too.
Peas and beans? Peas looked poor this year; beans are ok but not perfect.
Unaffected crops: sweet potatoes, carrots and family, lettuce, herbs, peppers, eggplant, ground cherry, onions, garlic, scallions, squash seems good.
I have been too lax on disease and I generally I don't worry about it too much and hope the plants get over it. Composting anything thinking it will make them stronger. I guess bad advice from years ago.
I need to disinfect everything going over there: all tools, all stakes and cages, drip tubing, hoses, staples, row cover, pots, trays, shade fabric- you name it! Kind of scary. I just want to do all I can to not infect the new field! I definitely need advice on this one!
Yes Joseph, I hope purchased seed would be clean of the above. I just don't want to mess up.
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Post by steev on Aug 28, 2015 1:15:08 GMT -5
May your investment in prevention pay well.
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Post by petitvilaincanard on Aug 29, 2015 9:35:49 GMT -5
Trying to get rid of any desease is deeply rooted in the classical
approach of desease prevention.This sometimes leads to shocking measures like
-obligation of chemical treatment of crops
-eradication of species that might carry the pathogen
-preventive destruction of wide populations when only a few individuals are affected
This 'total war' strategie is mostly,if not allways,a failure.
Always some individuals escape the persecution and the desease will be back
sooner or later.
Despite the allmost impossibility of succes,the approach is deeply rooted in agricultural practice.
The opposite approach is to accept the presence of deaseases,and trying to create
conditions that limits the desease to not harmfull levels.
In general conditions that are in favor of healthy conditions are
-high biological activity of the soil,favoured by regular input of organic matter
and minimal perturbence of the soil-layers.
-good soil- structure(result of rich biologic activity)
-good soil respiration,resulting from a good structure.
Specialy concerning the last point,I doubt if a prolonged soilcover with plastic
is a good thing for a healthy biological activity of the soil.(Apart from envirenmental aspects
of very extensive use of plastic films).Imho they can create semi-anaerobic conditions
Also,spores and bacteria spread faster on the smooth surface of plastic than elsewhere.
I experiences that sometimes when I opened a plastic bag of potting soil a horrible smell
came out of it.As I heard of intoxications because of emanations from such bags I get away as
fast as I can from the bag after cutting it open.
Comming back only two days later when aerobic conditions are getting established and potential toxic emanations are gone.
other favorable conditions are
-crop rotation,smaller surfaces of many crops,mixed planting,
-varied biological environment (trees,wild plants etc)
The plant breeding aspect is a whole more chapter.
But to be short,personally I prefer seeds from populations that have been
exposed to the desease rather then others.
You can push things even further.
LAst year I had a potatoe/tomato blight epidemie the first time since years.
But it didn't reach my tps-patch.
So I took a bunch of deseased vines and spread them on my tps-patch.
Only 2 plants from about 20 were not heavily affected.
But I was happy.
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Post by templeton on Aug 29, 2015 9:36:37 GMT -5
littleminnie, i commend your approach. I would be doing exactly the same if given the opportunity to move to a fresh patch. This is a great opportunity to walk away from a diseased area, and try a new aproach. Not taking disease there, or at least trying to minimize the thoughtless introduction of disease just seems obvious. It might not work in the long run, but certainly worth a try. At least you wont be trying to reduce disease through new practises in a disease hot spot. Hot water baths work for some seeds, and weak bleach solutions. I love plain old bleach as a diinfectant for pots and tools, might work for shade cloth and other stuff too if you can get a big enough barrel to soak everything in. Metal stuff can be flamed, dont get it too hot if galvanised. Ethanol is a good disinfectant to, and you can burn it off as well. Im not familiar with the black spot, but could you prune the tops off the horseradish, and replant the bleach dipped ends of the roots into sterile potting mix in a pot, and put it somewhere in quarantine for a while to see if you have eliminated it? depending on the temperature required for seed treatment, you could get a reasonably priced thermostat to regulate a water bath -ive just got a $30 reptile aquarium controller thats easy to program, conected to my propagator, would work with an immersion heater too i reckon. good luck.
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Post by oldmobie on Aug 29, 2015 12:30:52 GMT -5
You've gotten lots of good suggestions, but there's one I've read of but didn't notice within your thread. Has anyone mentioned treating seed with peroxide? I haven't used it, and don't know which seeds it's good for. Seems to reduce pathogens (duh) and soften seed-coats. I guess that could mean try it before planting, not before storage.
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Post by reed on Aug 29, 2015 17:08:49 GMT -5
I'm sure those disinfectant methods would work and would have no reservations about using them on tools and other equipment but I would be chicken to use hot water or bleach on seeds. Sounds like a little experimentation would be in order first to make sure your technique is correct.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 29, 2015 18:23:24 GMT -5
When I was doing plant tissue culture, we sterilized with bleach, alcohol (10%), peroxide (0.3%), and flaming. Short rinses or soaks didn't damage the tissues. I'd expect seed coats to be more resistant to damage. I adhere to the petitvilaincanard school of thought regarding diseases and pests... They are welcome in my garden, and we'll spin the genetic roulette wheel and see what survives. Specialy concerning the last point,I doubt if a prolonged soilcover with plastic is a good thing for a healthy biological activity of the soil.(Apart from envirenmental aspects of very extensive use of plastic films).Imho they can create semi-anaerobic conditions Also,spores and bacteria spread faster on the smooth surface of plastic than elsewhere. I experiences that sometimes when I opened a plastic bag of potting soil a horrible smell came out of it.As I heard of intoxications because of emanations from such bags I get away as fast as I can from the bag after cutting it open. Comming back only two days later when aerobic conditions are getting established and potential toxic emanations are gone. Thanks for the explanation... I've often felt creeped-out by putting plastic on the ground, or over plants. I think this explanation goes a long way towards unraveling my feelings towards plastic in the garden. I tend to offer paper bags at market, because it seems like vegetables stored in plastic rot away much quicker... I make an exception for some root crops that benefit from higher humidity during storage |
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Post by littleminnie on Aug 29, 2015 20:42:26 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies. I also feel plastic is less than ideal for sure. I don't plan on using plastic so much anymore.(I found a source for biodegradable plastic that is almost affordable) It was a needs must situation (is that the phrase?) because my land was allowed to freely seed around me. The soil now looks and tests great but the disease has increased this year due mostly to weather and letting some things I didn't know about get worse, and weeds are extraordinarily bad! That is, I only learned about black rot and cercospora this spring! Which makes me feel pretty dumb. It looked more like bug damage before.
The tools and things can be bleached and torched. I just hope I don't forget any. I plan to do the method next year of the things there, staying there- no exchange of gloves or tools with home.
As for seeds, I will try peroxide. I have a lot as I have been spraying it on the plants. But if I don't need to save a seed I won't. I will buy some things fresh. As I said I have tomatoes that are unique to me that I want to continue to grow. I'll disinfect those.
I'm not bringing any fruit or asparagus over to the new place but want to transfer the sunchokes, garlic and horseradish next fall. I probably don't need to transplant many herbs and perennials but I will dig up mint, lavender and possibly some other clean plants.
It certainly is exciting to start somewhere new; somewhere all my own! I feel like a newlywed. It's easy to have an over the top optimistic view of everything being perfect there. As for soil, I posted the soil test results in another thread. The soil is poor but with good possibilities as I prefer sand. I wish I had the opportunity to only cover crop all next season but can't for these reasons: rented field is turning into a sour situation with the disease, weeds, pump being dead, and now the sink doesn't have water anymore so I can't even wash up! 2. I would just take the season off of growing but I don't want to lose my CSA customers. 3. I can't NOT make any money from farming for a season.
So I have mentioned this before I think, but the plan is to:
September 15- disc entire area and cover crop seed (I have rye and red clover)
transplant some perennials from home and new trees
get lots of manure piled up
Spring 16-
spread manure bed by bed. Only grow about 150x50 of crops and put in about half that area in perennials too. Plant fruit trees as well. The growing in 2016 area will be the closest to the house
all summer- keep all the rest of the area cover cropped, mow it or redisc and reseed if the weeds are bad. Get additional manure and compost built up for that area and over a couple years get it into production.
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Post by walnuttr on Aug 30, 2015 4:56:15 GMT -5
" but the disease has increased this year due mostly to weather "
Just a couple of extras to the screeds of good stuff on disease control; If "weather " means warm and wet / humid, then I expect you will not get a serious repeat if the current season stays a bit drier..or plan for a bit wider spacing between plants for the wind to dry out what it can. I dunno if your present soil is high clay / stays wet, but the new spot sounds a drier /sandy site and that may help. "So I have mentioned this before I think, but the plan is to:
September 15- disc entire area and cover crop seed (I have rye and red clover)"
? perhaps add a taller plant to the cover-crop such as oats to increase the shading-out of weedy stuff... "all summer- keep all the rest of the area cover cropped, mow it or redisc and reseed if the weeds are bad. Get additional manure and compost built up for that area and over a couple years get it into production."
One trick instead of mowing is to just repeat rolling the cover crop / weeds with ridged rollers such as "cambridge" roller, somehow it makes the weed struggle along in the damp shade , rather than resprout with forty shoots on the mowed base now exposed to sunlight and dry air. |
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at the end. I have not tried these approaches but they might help you out. Note that Chlorox recently was reformulated to change the the bleach concentration, so check your labels.
