andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Oct 19, 2015 23:55:32 GMT -5
I've been reading about beans lately, and am interested by interspecific crosses between common, runner, and tepary beans. All of the crosses are possible, though only the common x runner cross has been done without embryo rescue, according to the literature. As background, professional breeders have made crosses and moved disease resistance genes from runner and tepary beans into common beans.
So, here's the question. What traits would be interesting to take from common beans and introduce to runner or tepary beans? For now, let's disregard minor issues like feasibility.
To start off:
common->tepary: non-shattering pods
common->runner: greasy-bean smooth pods (less-fuzzy green beans)
common->runner: widely spaced seeds in long pods, like Fortex (two-foot long, inch-wide green beans!)
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Post by philagardener on Oct 20, 2015 5:45:56 GMT -5
Interesting project, andyb ! I grew Brown Teparies for the first time this year and the pods didn't shatter, but I don't know if that is because even though in PA we were dry we didn't have as low humidity as the West. I didn't try to eat the green pods, but they weren't fleshy (didn't look that appealing) so that might be interesting, as would reducing fiberous pods. I don't know if reducing the amount of surface fuzz would open opportunities for insect damage. I guess you will find out! Increasing individual sees size would be a plus - it takes a lot to fill a cup! I also had a hard time getting them established here - which I attribute to a rainy period after planting (things rotted in the soil). Again, I am growing them outside their normal area, so was pleased with the good yield that I eventually got from the few plants that made it and thrived in our summer heat. Good luck with your project! |
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Post by reed on Oct 20, 2015 7:05:25 GMT -5
How about increasing pod set in runners with common genes? I don't mind the fuzzy pods, I think runners are very good as a green bean but never had enough of them to try as a dry bean. I have some seeds that may be a runner / common cross. They look like a small runner and had red flowers but I didn't plant runners in the patch they came from.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 20, 2015 22:46:23 GMT -5
I'd like both teparies and runners with bush growth habit.
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Post by raymondo on Oct 21, 2015 3:36:36 GMT -5
I like reed's suggestion of increased pod set in runners. I like them but get too few usually. |
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Oct 22, 2015 0:56:35 GMT -5
Interesting project, andyb ! I grew Brown Teparies for the first time this year and the pods didn't shatter, but I don't know if that is because even though in PA we were dry we didn't have as low humidity as the West. I didn't try to eat the green pods, but they weren't fleshy (didn't look that appealing) so that might be interesting, as would reducing fiberous pods. I don't know if reducing the amount of surface fuzz would open opportunities for insect damage. I guess you will find out! Increasing individual sees size would be a plus - it takes a lot to fill a cup! I also had a hard time getting them established here - which I attribute to a rainy period after planting (things rotted in the soil). Again, I am growing them outside their normal area, so was pleased with the good yield that I eventually got from the few plants that made it and thrived in our summer heat. I think expanding the range of tepary beans into higher latitude / cooler places is a worthy goal, and it's an interesting idea to try to get something from common beans to help this out. There are probably so many traits involved that using a regionally adapted common bean in a cross and then looking for something useful to make it through the stabilization process might be a reasonable strategy. Not sure what tepary bean pods are like. I'd been thinking of the de-fuzzing for runner bean pods. They're really tasty, but the skins have a sort of fuzzy, coarse texture. The only time I've grown tepary beans to maturity was when I was living in Tucson, Arizona. They produced a crop but shattered like crazy. I'm planning to grow a small variety trial next summer to see how they do in Seattle. |
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Oct 22, 2015 1:02:20 GMT -5
I'd like both teparies and runners with bush growth habit. Absolutely. From what I've read, there are some bush runners out there, but they're apparently not very productive. My impression is that a lot of the productivity gains in commercial common bean varieties comes down to plant architecture. It might be nice to take advantage of the work they've done. |
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Oct 22, 2015 1:18:48 GMT -5
How about increasing pod set in runners with common genes? I don't mind the fuzzy pods, I think runners are very good as a green bean but never had enough of them to try as a dry bean. I have some seeds that may be a runner / common cross. They look like a small runner and had red flowers but I didn't plant runners in the patch they came from. Was the female parent of your possible cross a common or a runner bean? It's supposedly a lot easier to use the common bean as the female, so a female runner parent would be very interesting. I've read elsewhere on this forum that some or all runners need some sort of pollinator to trip the flower, and that this is sometimes the reason they don't set. The flowers I've ripped apart definitely had the stigma sticking out away from the anthers, and I could move it around by tripping pulling the wing petals. The common bean flowers I've looked at all had the stigma nestled in among the anthers. I wonder if it might be possible to get some of the common bean's self-pollinating flower architecture into the runner beans. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 22, 2015 5:33:05 GMT -5
The tepary bean pods that I have grown are flat, glossy, and intensely bitter!
I like the shattering mechanism in teparies better than that in soybeans... The soybeans that I have grown self-open in the field. The teparies have to be jostled before they open. That means that I can harvest whole dried tepary plants, and toss them on a tarp without triggering shattering. Then a light beating or stomping releases the beans.
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Post by reed on Oct 22, 2015 6:07:23 GMT -5
andyb I don't know. I got Cherokee Greasy beans at a swap last year and it grew from them. A plant with red flowers showed up and made a purplish colored bean that looks like a small runner bean. It is one of four or five that don't look like the seeds I planted. I'm anxious to grow it next year and see what I get. If it is a cross it happened before I got the seeds. I have tons of bees and even humming birds on all of my beans and I'm starting to think crossing is not all that uncommon.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Oct 22, 2015 23:06:24 GMT -5
The tepary beans I had in Tucson exploded at the slightest touch if they were fully dry. Had to pick them when they were a little leathery and let them dry in a bowl. I wonder how much of the difference is due to the genetics and how much is from the growing environment.
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Oct 22, 2015 23:12:51 GMT -5
So probably a common bean mother, but nothing's certain. I'll be interested to hear how it grows next year. Sounds like fun!
I've just started trying to make hand crosses with runners and common beans. More practice than anything, at this point. I'm curious to find out how difficult it is to make the cross and how difficult it is to grow the F1 seed. I've heard there might be root development problems due to genetic incompatibilities.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 22, 2015 23:55:52 GMT -5
I don't pick tepary bean pods... I pick tepary bean plants...
The first time I picked tepary beans, I tried harvesting pods. My technique -- since they were going to shatter anyway -- was to wrap my hand completely around the pod, and gave it slight pressure so that they shattered in my hand. These days I pick whole fully-dried plants, and hit them against the inside of a bucket or garbage can.
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