Triploid Onions anyone?

[haslamhulme]

Hi all,first time poster here.Ive been browsing the boards for a while.somehow ended up here whilst reading online about growing landraces so I blame/thank Joseph Lofthouse!.

I'll post a proper intro about myself in 'Welcome' but for my first post I am calling on the collective knowledge of The board to see what people's experiences and knowledge are of Triploid and hybrid onions are.

I thought it would be cool if red onion genes could be bred into leeks(red leeks would be cool wouldn't they?) and to my disappointment through my google-research found that they couldn't without some meddling(embryo rescue sort of stuff not achievable down the allotment). I did however find an interesting short paper on genetics of Triploid onions.(see here if you are interested,there is also an interesting genetic 'family tree', of the species analysed www.academia.edu/2569630/Origin_of_some_minor_vegetatively_propagated_Allium_crops_studied_with_RAPD_and_GISH).

I am now really interested in trying out some of the lesser-known minor allium crops such as:
Praan(India)
Ljutika (Croatia)
Johanneslauch(Germany)
St Jans ui(Netherlands)

Topsetting/Egyptian/walking onions are now quite easy to obtain here as are Perutile/viviparous types of salad onions but these other minor crops which are commonly grown elsewhere are as far as I can see entirely absent here.

Does anyone have experience with any of these(e.g hardiness,habit,speed of division,whether they set flower,produce top sets etc)or know of a source based either in the UK or who would post to the UK?

[flowerweaver]

Welcome haslamhulme, I think Joseph has attracted many of us to the forum. I cannot answer your question, but I'm sure someone here will. Good luck with your breeding projects.

[philagardener]

Welcome to HG, haslamhulme ! It sounds like you have some nifty projects in mind!

[haslamhulme]

Thanks for the welcome guys,I always have nifty projects in mind,whether family life and work permits the time is another matter,probably why the idea of self replicating onions is so attractive!

[steev]

Joseph didn't attract me to this site; he's been an unexpected pleasure, as have been so many others here.

[raymondo]

What steev said and welcome from me too.

[toad]

Haslamhulme you mightind elephant garlic interesting. They are polyploid, usually hexaploid,but octoploid cultivars are described in the scientific litterature. Cross a diploid to a tetraploid, and you (with luck and patience) get a triploid plant.

[haslamhulme]

Thanks for the advice toad,they are on my mental 'to grow' list alongside Babington leeks when resources permit.One of the old hands down the allotment said he might have some elephant garlic spare this year so will have to see.I am generally interested in weird and wonderful plants full stop after discovering the sheer diversity to be found in growing.Alliuns are just astoundingly resourceful in their determination to reproduce by any means!.still in awe of natures weirdness and resourcefulness,something which the misses doesn't share so I get you share with you interesting bunch!.

[templeton]

Oct 23, 2015 14:28:59 GMT -5 toad said:

Haslamhulme you mightind elephant garlic interesting. They are polyploid, usually hexaploid,but octoploid cultivars are described in the scientific litterature. Cross a diploid to a tetraploid, and you (with luck and patience) get a triploid plant.

toad, A.ampeloprasum=elephant garlic? Does this different ploidy men I'm unlikely to get crosses of my perennial leeks to elephant garlic?
And I have noted elsewhere the allium name database at melbourne university which you might like to have a look at, haslamhulme
t

[toad]

Templeton I'm not sure how easy it is to cross hexaploid and octoploid to diploid alliums, but there must be scientific litterature on the subject. Generally tetraploids cross with diploids, offsprings becoming triploid. Triploids have difficulties reproducing by seeds - how to share 3 set of cromosomes in equal parts? And there should be room for some cross overs!

[toad]

Ps. Yes, A. ampeloprasum is also elephant garlic.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allium_ampeloprasum
www.theplantlist.org/tpl1.1/record/kew-294972?ref=tpl1

[templeton]

Thanks toad. Hmmm, thiis might mean a bit of a rethink on my side project of getting some variety into perennial leeks....I've established a small 1 sq m plot, with the best 'pearling' individuals from a mixed leek plot, including rowan 's perennial, and some wild elephant garlic....hoping for some mass crossing, then growing out seedlings for mass selection, but if there is different ploidy floating around, might need to follow some lines a bit more stringently...or not ☺
I could go down to the railway line this summer and check to see if the wild elephant set seed.
T

[raymondo]

Oct 28, 2015 17:06:37 GMT -5 templeton said:

... I could go down to the railway line this summer and check to see if the wild elephant set seed.
T

Now there's an image: a wild elephant setting seed ... and by railway tracks no less ... wonderful.

[templeton]

drove past last night, not a flowering pachyderm in sight...someone else must have harvested the rest of them...