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Post by haslamhulme on Oct 27, 2015 21:04:50 GMT -5
Lots already posted on Moschata but I'm still trying to figure out what to plant for next year.
I have grown Waltham butternut a couple of years running and only this year have I been able to produce two miniature butternuts,they are so small I suspect there isn't even a seed cavity,it didn't help that only 1 plant made it so unless it managed to cross with another moschata grown by someone else nearby the chances aren't good I'll be able to grow the survivors out.
I was thinking of trailing a couple of different moschatas next year and letting them cross deliberately to select for 1,survival, 2,managing to actually set fruit and 3,if they manage all that,actually produce some useful fruit and seed to carry on.
What moschata varieties would anyone suggest I include?,ideally need short season,I'm based in the UK,and would like to get some variety into the landrace( size, shape,ridging etc) and not much concerned with vine size etc,also the Waltham are quite boring in all honesty,not much to look at.
I have checked out Bakers Creek and they have a few which ripen around the same number of days as Waltham,the only earlier I think was Tromboniccio,any idea if that is earlier to true maturity or if it's just generally picked earlier as a summer squash?
Any suggestions welcome
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 27, 2015 23:41:20 GMT -5
The tromboccino variety that I grew this year was very long season, and the vast majority (90%) of fruits started rotting soon after flowering.
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Post by diane on Oct 27, 2015 23:57:09 GMT -5
I grew some moschata for the first time this year, and it produced beautifully. Actually, it out-produced all the maximas I grew.
The seed was from Adaptive Seeds in Oregon. Here is their description of how they produced it:
Cucurbita moschata. 90 days.
As market growers, we knew that winter squash storability & flavor improve with ripeness, so we were always on the lookout for an early butternut variety that matured well here in Oregon. Some hybrids come close, but most OPs require a longer growing season than we can provide. In 2005, we started growing every early butternut variety we could find, including Nutterbutter, Hunter F1, Butterbush, Early Butternut F1, Butterfly F1, & more. We allowed them to cross freely & have been selecting for early ripening & 2-4 lb fruit with a classic butternut shape, although there is the occasional 6+ lb fruit depending on growing conditions. Because there were so many parents in this genepool, expect some variation, all within a classic butternut theme.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Oct 28, 2015 1:11:13 GMT -5
I tried butterbush this year. It did pitiful. Will not grow it again. I've had volunteer buternuts produce in past years. But I'm still new to planting them on purpose. I've heard great success from others who start with Joseph's landrace moshata. Sadly I haven't tried it yet, not sure I can spare the space yet. (The watermelon project usually is a space hog).
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Post by notonari on Oct 28, 2015 2:31:03 GMT -5
diane: That sounds very interesting, might try that. I grew Waltham, Long Island Cheese and Longue de Nice this year. The Waltham started producing flowers too late in the season here, and didn't produce any fully mature squash. I got two Long Island Cheese that seem to be fully mature, and two Longue de Nice. LdN was the earliest of the bunch, and looks pretty interesting as well, but it aborted a whole lot of fruit before I finally got two that set properly (1 per plant). Haven't tasted it yet, but I will probably include it in a larger moschata trial next year.
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Post by ferdzy on Oct 28, 2015 8:08:04 GMT -5
I'm in southern Ontario, and I start moschata seeds in pots around April 21st, to plant outside between May 24th and June 1st. Fruit needs to be ripe and ready by late September. I've never had any trouble getting a good crop, but while I suspect your season is just as long, you may not have the necessary heat and dryness to produce good squash. (Or you may. Last time I was in England it was 100°F and the train I was on died of the heat. Squash would have loved it though.) We had a cool, wet summer last year and got lots of squash; it was just watery and bland. This year was fairly hot and while we had decent rain, it was not excessive, and our squash is going to be amazing, I can already tell, having eaten a couple. I have grown: Waltham, oxbowfarm s Landrace, Nutter Butter, and Pennsylvania Crookneck. All have done well for me. If you can get your hands on Nutter Butter, that might be a good one to try. It is a smaller squash, ripens earlier, and trellises very well. |
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Post by haslamhulme on Oct 28, 2015 9:17:09 GMT -5
Thanks for all of the aggressions guys,helped point me in the right direction I think, This is what I could find on Real Seeds in order of earliness,they seem to have a really good selection of Moschata varieties. The tromboccino variety that I grew this year was very long season, and the vast majority (90%) of fruits started rotting soon after flowering. Joseph the first one below is the trombonnicio type I was thinking of,maybe slightly different from the true trombonnicio you trialed?,how many days does your landrace Moschata take to maturity?,I am thinking of doing the same sort of thing but for my growing conditions. From Real Seeds(Baker Creek) Zucchino Rampicante 72 days Kikuza Squash 95 days Kikuza Squash 95 days Long of Naples Squash 95 days Dickinson Pumpkin 100 days Rogosa Violina "Gioia" 100 days Yokohama Squash 100 days Long Island Cheese 105 days Black Futsu Squash 105 days Pennsylvania Crookneck 105 days Noob Taub 100-110 days Shishigatani 110 days Sucrine Du Berry 110 days Thai Kang Kob Pumpkin 110 days Thai Rai Kaw Tok 110 days Upper Ground Sweet Potato 110 days Canada Crookneck Squash 110 days Alligator Squash 110 days Chiriman Squash 110 days Geraumon Martinique 110 days Musquee De Provence 120 days Palav Kadu Squash 120 days Quaker Pie Pumpkin 120 days Seminole Pumpkin 120 days San Jose Mountain Club 150 days I think anything longer than 105 days might be out of the question here,even 100-105 days here seems marginal,it's that extra couple of weeks that we just don't seem to get,temperatures drop off and then plateau for quite a while and weather gets cool and wet,most of the vines don't make it,some make a bit of a recovery into the last few weeks of October but due to the cool temperatures new fruit don't seem to size up and flowers just form green and don't ripen,after that I find anything outside just seems to rot or get attacked by slugs and powdery mildew. Diane,thanks for the suggestion,Adaptive seeds butternut Early remix,violina rugosa and Canada Crookneck might be good ones to go for at 90 days,I noticed a considerable difference in days needed on Canada Crookneck(a full 20 days later on RareSeeds.I don't know how the two locations differ from the UK or each other. Matuyuma,interested to hear Long Island cheese produced for you where Waltham didn't,Long Island cheese is meant to take longer to mature(about 105 days)but if it flowers earlier than Waltham then it sounds like a good choice,as long as it sets fruit and they get to a half decent size ripening can always continue indoors.I don't know much about longer de nice but as it sounds like a French heirloom so presuming it's probably similar to langue de napoli(95 days)?. I'll have to make a short list and go from there,depends what I can order from the states and obtain here,we're not spoilt for choice with Moschatas here as folks are on the other side of the pond |
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Post by ferdzy on Oct 28, 2015 9:21:57 GMT -5
haslamhulme, as a Canadian I notice that anything given a certain number of days to maturity by someone in the southern half of the U.S. will need certain number of days plus X% to ripen here. We just don't have the same heat, and it makes a difference.
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Post by haslamhulme on Oct 28, 2015 9:24:56 GMT -5
Hi ferdzy,I think you are right about the heat and dryness,I just don't think we get it for long enough,I too start out in pots indoors in April,the vines tend to just sit there from about May-June in the ground not doing much,and then romp off in July through to September,the last few summers have been really hot and dry but May and June have been a bit all over the place(messed with my Pear blossoms as well, no pears  )so I can't count on those months in the figures,most of the blossoms set in those month just fall off before pollination can occur.The Moschatas seem to be the last to flower as well,Pepo first then Maxima,wbjch doesnt help.I think part of the problem is the weird weather and the variability in temperature early on,it seems to really check the growth,that's one of the reasons I'm thinking a landrace would be a good idea,get some dynamism and pragmatism into the gene pool to cope with our weird weather(I would call it extreme,we just get a lot of it in a short space of time) |
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Post by haslamhulme on Oct 28, 2015 9:30:38 GMT -5
Lol,we notice the same thing here with the souther half of the U.K,things can ripen weeks earlier in the south,we have lots of microclimates,where I am is on the edge of a large city so we get the warmth from that but I am also a high elevation so we tend suffer at both ends of the heat spectrum more than out fellow city dwellers at the bottom of he hills(central Birmingham).I think 100 days for Waltham in the southern UK is do able but even then not commercially so-all UK butter nuts come from Portugal,Spain and Greece).I recon here I'm looking more at a however many days +7-10 here,sweetcorn is the same,always about 10 days- 2 weeks after the books all say it should be ready
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Oct 28, 2015 11:38:48 GMT -5
No telling where my seed came from, or if it's the real thing or not. In my mind, tromboncino describes the shape, not the genetics.
My moschata landrace has been through two bottlenecks in which the plants were killed by frost 88, and 84 days after direct seeding. I figure that my average frost free growing season is 100 days. But like mentioned earlier, a 70 DTM tomato takes 100 days in my garden. Waltham Butternut is too long season for my garden. This year, we still haven't got our fall frosts, and it's been 145 days since direct seeding. As a result I got a second crop of moschata and of maxima squash this growing season!!!
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Post by philagardener on Oct 28, 2015 19:17:13 GMT -5
I grew Rogosa Violina for the first time this year and from three hills didn't get a single fruit. Terrible year in my garden for moschatas!  |
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Post by raymondo on Oct 29, 2015 22:09:38 GMT -5
Like you, haslamhulme, I'm taking a leaf out of Joseph Lofthouse's book and starting a moschata landrace. I have four butternut types in this year to start. With only four types I will move some pollen around myself. I usually can get ripe butternut types here though I will be selecting for early maturity. Other traits I'm keen on are quality flesh, small seed cavity and good storage. I'd like to be still eating last season's fruit as this season's ripen. I don't know whether moschatas will keep this long. |
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Post by haslamhulme on Oct 30, 2015 5:01:08 GMT -5
Hi Raymondo,landrace is definitely the way to go, I think Joseph Lofthouse has the right idea.I think I'll start selecting for taste,density,texture,colour,storage ability etc after a few generation but to start with I just need something to grow!.From Joseph's last post it's obvious that landrace breeding has its benefits,it sounds like his landrace has the genetic dynamism to survive whatever the weather can throw at it.
Ive decided my 'Pumpkin patch,(20ftx10ft) can survive without Maximas and Pepos next season after renewing my seed stock this year,going to go all Moschata.
Are you going to work on 'butternut' coloured varieties for the landrace or a mix?,I think I might get the 'butter' coloured landrace going and then do a green/black Moschata mix later.
Compiling my short list at the moment,going for a mix of shapes,having something butternut shaped isn't that important for me,we eat then just the same.
Which variwties did you go for Raymondo?
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Post by raymondo on Oct 30, 2015 15:51:16 GMT -5
Which variwties did you go for Raymondo? My four starters are: Waltham, a classic butternut type, The Wellington Boot, an Australian developed butternut not available anymore. My seed for it were very old so I added them on a whim. They haven't emerged yet but there's plenty of time yet, Some from a seed packet that just said Butternut but the seed company is local so is already beginning to adapt and finally Some seed from a supermarket variety that had almost all the characteristics I'm after. I ate it so I'll never know about its storageability  |
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)so I can't count on those months in the figures,most of the blossoms set in those month just fall off before pollination can occur.The Moschatas seem to be the last to flower as well,Pepo first then Maxima,wbjch doesnt help.I think part of the problem is the weird weather and the variability in temperature early on,it seems to really check the growth,that's one of the reasons I'm thinking a landrace would be a good idea,get some dynamism and pragmatism into the gene pool to cope with our weird weather(I would call it extreme,we just get a lot of it in a short space of time)
