Cross between Dual and Spanish Skyscraper peas

[ferdzy]

So 2 summers ago I found a cross between Dual, a relatively recent early mid-season determinate pea with up to 11 smallish emerald green peas per pod, and Spanish Skyscraper, a very late, very tall fairly indeterminate pea with large mid-green peas. I grew it out last year and was very impressed with it, but knew that as an f1 hybrid, it was probably not what I would ultimately end up.

These are 2 staple peas in my garden, and if I had crossed peas on purpose (I didn't) this would have been a combination I would have wanted to try. Thanks, bees!

This year, I grew out the f2s, and I was surprised and not entirely pleased with the results. I was expecting some segregation this year, and I really didn't see it. The peas were a lot like the f1, but I thought less sweet and tasty. That I hoped may have had to do with the fact that this was a hotter, dryer year for us, but as you can see once they dried down they are much less wrinkled, meaning no.

I didn't eat a lot of these peas fresh, as I wanted to sort them for productivity etc. In the end though, I was unable to keep track of which plant was which and so I sorted the peas only by the number of peas per pod. I got a decent number of 6s and 7s, enough 8s to just plant them as my next crop if I want to (and I might) and just one 9er, which I just threw in with the 8s. I also got a pot of 5s and lowers.

Productivity-wise, these are way up there, even given the number of pods with 5 or fewer peas. The peas are a decent size, and I probably got close to 4 cups of dried peas from 2 double rows at 2" spacing (then a foot or so between rows) and 4 feet in lenth.

Given how many I got, I will try them out as a soup pea. Spanish Skyscraper is a very good soup pea; large and chick-pea like. These look like they might be too.

Does anyone know what is likely to happen if I grow them out again next year? Where did that nice green colour, wrinkled texture, and superb flavour in the f1 go? Those qualities are gone for good, aren't they...

[ferdzy]

Still hoping someone may have some insight on these.

Actually, I was shelling my dried Amish Snap seeds last night, and I was struck by the fact that many of them have those same little golf-ball style dimples of my f3 seeds. Now I wonder if my cross could have been between Spanish Skyscraper and Amish Snap. Why it would have shown up in the Dual bed, I don't know, but I suppose stranger things have happened. Or maybe this kind of golf-ball dimpling is less unusual than I think? But it would explain a few things about the flavour, I suppose, and I did notice quite a bit of variability in the toughness (or not) of the pods as I shelled them. Still pretty convinced Spanish Skyscraper was the pollinator.

What I don't get, is if yellow seeds are dominant and green seeds are recessive, then my green seeded cross should have produced green seeded offspring, because it should have had only green genes. Right? Only this next generation plainly reverted to yellow. Anyone? Aaaaannnnyyyyoooonnnneee?

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

If that is indeed a natural cross then i applaud the insects for sure. Are you sure it's not another type mixed in or an off-type that you just never noticed? Not saying it isn't a cross, but it isn't showing the usual traits in order for recessive genes. Your right, yellow is supposed to be dominant over green, so i'm not sure what happened there. A bit confusing actually.

What i can say in regards to the dimpling is yeah it's pretty common, especially when you get starchy genes interacting with sugar genes. Sometimes you can get what i call "throwback" genes which do not normally show up in either parent. This can happen because of genes that are dormant and epistatic to other genes which may not be present because of recessive genes present. This might be the case as both parent varieties as your picture shows have wrinkled seeds, but i don't know.

keen101.wordpress.com/2015/08/19/pea-breeding-resources/

issuu.com/jmaldon/docs/chapter-14

^^ page 13 in the virtual PDF talks about epistatic genes in mice and brown fur color.

[raymondo]

I wonder whether there might be other genes for pea colour. Perhaps Mr Mendel lucked out and found a simple dominant/recessive allele pair. Perhaps there are others that only show up under certain conditions. As far as dimpling goes, I made a cross between a smooth pea and a wrinkled pea (part of my yellow podded snow project). I grew out the F1 this year and got a range wrinkledness from smooth through to clearly wrinkled but with golf ball dimples, occasional dimples and other variations as well. Perhaps it's only environmental. Who knows. I will plant out the obviously wrinkled separately because one of the traits I want is sweet peas.

[ferdzy]

Keen, confusing, yes I know! I should really have tall, green, wrinkly peas. Yet they are heading for round and yellow just as fast as they can. I'm pretty sure it's a cross; it showed up as a tall, distinctly different plant in my patch of Dual peas (short plants; green seeds; wrinkled). It really looked a lot like the Spanish Skyscraper plant, and at first glance I thought it was one, just out of place. But I realized it did not have the round, blunt-tipped pods of SS. It was tall, but had the finer foliage of Dual, not SS. It didn't match up exactly with anything else I was growing either. I'd been saving almost all my own pea seeds for about 3 years at that point, so pretty sure it didn't come in as a random pea from somewhere else. So, everything pseems to point to it being a cross.

Since you and raymondo both think the golf-ball dimples are not uncommon, I will return to my original belief that it is a cross between Dual and Spanish Skyscraper. I guess I will just have to assume that one or both of them have some wonky things in the background and I just "got (un)lucky" in my combo of genes. All these peas are the offspring of what looked like 2 or 3 crossed peas in the f1. I assume they were all in one pod, were fertilized in one go, and are essentially identical, as their offspring sure have been consistent, at least in each season.

[diane]

So are you going to do the Dual/Skyscraper cross yourself this year?

[ferdzy]

diane, probably. I tried to do planned crosses in 2014 for the first time, and none of them took. I tried a number of crosses between Spanish Skyscraper and 3 or 4 other peas this year and got a handful of what I *think* are crossed peas. I don't think I tried Dual, since I was under the impression I had it, but I will probably try that cross again next year. The ones I used this year were, I think, Carouby de Maussane, Mrs Van, and First and Best #2. I'll discover how all that actually went this summer, I hope.

[raymondo]

ferdzy, will you be able to tell from the F1 whether the crosses took?

[ferdzy]

raymondo, yes I think so. Certainly by the time the seeds dry down. They all have sufficient differences that it should be apparent.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

According to the book: Breed your own Vegetable Varieties by Carol Deppe, round pea seeds can show up from two wrinkled parent varieties:

Seed Shape is determined by a number of genes. The two most important loci are R and Rb. The recessive allele at either of these loci causes the seed to be wrinkled instead of round. The round seed becomes starchy faster than the wrinkled seed, but germinates better in cold weather. Round types are usually used for early cultivars, otherwise wrinkled types are used. Wrinkled genotypes are rrRb_, R_rbrb, and rrrbrb. Round seeds are R_Rb_. Cotyledon color can be green (ii) or yellow (I_). You may need to pierce the seed coat to see the cotyledon color.

P.s. Thanks Joseph Lofthouse for sending me your old copy of this book a few years back. I still get joy from it from time to time.

[raymondo]

Thanks keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.). So there are a number of genotypes producing wrinkled seeds. No wonder there appears to be some variation in phenotype.

[ferdzy]

Ah! Thank you keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) . So my next question is, will this happen usually when I cross Spanish Skyscraper and Dual, or did I just get particularly unlucky? I guess I can read about it, or I can try it again... hmm.

Actually, I know Carol Deppe sometimes comments here. If she sees this I'd love to hear what she has to say.

I should probably mention I will be away for 2 weeks starting tomorrow so wont reply to anyone about anything until I get back.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

let me do some looking again. I seem to remember reading something on the jic database that dimpling linked to another gene for another trait. Can't remember which.

The jic website seems to have changed recently. Harder to access now i think.

[ferdzy]

Hi keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.); I'd be interested if you find it, but I've given up on that particular pea cross. The results were just not that great. I still have them if I want to pursue a really tall, branching soup pea. Which I might if I ever eat the three years worth of soup peas already in the cold room.

My latest pea project has been some peas I found in the Harrisons Glory a few years back - I believe they are Harrisons Glory x Dual, and Harrisons Glory x First and Best #2. These are looking much more promising. I just harvested the Harrison's Glory x Dual yesterday (for seed) in fact, and I am getting nice large, sweet peas, typically 8 to a pod. I think they have a fair number, but when you are not picking them but saving for seed you really don't get to see what they can do because they stop early. Next year I should have enough to grow out and eat some, and see what the productivity looks like.

I should be gathering the Harrison's Glory x First and Best #2 in the next couple of days.

[ferdzy]

I just got in from checking the Harrison's Glory x First and Best #2. I really am quite excited about these!

Some background: I got First and Best #2 from Owen Bridges at Annapolis seeds a few years back. I don't think he sold them for very long. They are an interesting pea, but one with some problems. It is one of the most indeterminate peas I have grown, producing LOTS of pods over a long period of time, but the peas are small and not that many per pod. The flavour is excellent but mild verging on bland. They are quite pale too.

When I found a cross in the Harrison's Glory, I thought it had the potential to be very interesting and seems like it might be. Harrison's Glory has excellent flavour, decently sized peas in okay numbers in the pods, but more typical growth habit (mid sized, mid season plants).

I've just pulled most of the plants but there are still about 6 in the garden. One of them in particular is still pumping out pods. They are a bit more orderly than First and Best #2, but really indeterminate and while the pods look a lot like the First and Best #2, they are at least 2 or 3 times the size. Probably not more than 6 peas per pod, but a darker green, and stronger flavour. I ate a couple earlier in the season and thought them really good. I ate one just now that had plainly sat around for a while, and although it wasn't all that tasty it was not bitter and not even all that starchy. In other words, these hold really well, for peas. I hope I will have enough to grow out next year, and pick and process them like other peas, and see how they stand up to that. I have high hopes!