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Post by gilbert on Mar 17, 2016 13:43:39 GMT -5
So from the linked thread about Durgan's potatoes, somebody telling him something besides the variety was wrong. quote:
So is this another piece to the puzzle? What IS the difference between chitting and sprouting?
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Post by paquebot on Mar 17, 2016 13:52:59 GMT -5
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Post by paquebot on Mar 17, 2016 14:09:14 GMT -5
Gilbert, that reference is to the state of the stalk. If it is still underground, it's capable of producing stolons. Once it emerges and is exposed to sunlight, photosynthesis begins and any buds will become true branches rather than stolons. The potato in question already had an apparent long sprout. Although it's nice to call them a sprout, they are stems. If any part of it begins to turn green, that is a permanent stalk even if it's not yet planted. That in turn may be forced to grow 10' long but the only potatoes are still going to be just above where the sprout emanated from.
Martin
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Post by nathanp on Mar 17, 2016 21:41:11 GMT -5
Technically, a tuber is a modified stolon. Some varieties only set tubers on stolons close to the original seed tuber. That is the trait to avoid. Martin is correct, keep the stolon buried, and then non-tuberosum types will produce tubers if they have the genetics to do so. You have to keep the stem buried before photosynthesis can start. It will be a race, though, to keep burying without the original tuber losing energy.
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Post by paquebot on Mar 17, 2016 23:50:40 GMT -5
I read about growing in tires long before Internet. No idea which garden magazine it was as I subscribed to various. It was a secondhand report of what a person saw her neighbor doing. Every day he would add more soil to the tire pile and then another tire and more soil. He finally stopped when the stack was about 8 tires high. At the end of the season, tires were removed and potatoes rolled out from all over.
The idea was new and wasn't long before others were trying it but few got more than a few tubers for their effort. What was missing is what the guy was doing each day. He was only allowing a couple leaves to develop and then cover them. They would emerge and he'd cover them again. Some who try it are gungho at the start but then they forget about it for a couple days and the battle is lost.
How potatoes grow is no secret. Hilling potatoes to get better production has been known for centuries. Now we have some like Durgan who come along and claim that everyone back to the Incas were wrong. The sad part is that there are some who wouldn't know a cobbler from a fingerling but believe him. Then those of us who know how to grow potatoes just shake our heads and ask if it is really worth trying to explain it for the umpteenth time but we try!
I've been involved in a community garden since 2005. First year there was about 80 plots and only 3 gardeners grew potatoes. Ten years ago, attitude was usually that potatoes were cheaper to buy than to grow. Now there are about 150 plots and there were potatoes in probably 30 of them last year and most were first experience growing them.
That ties right back into this thread. There have been a number of gardeners who show up with some potatoes that they bought to eat and sprouted. Some may have a sprout a foot or more long. Most won't question when I tell them to tear it off and let the potato grow a new one. However, there's always a few who try to "transplant" by treating it as a plant or lay it in a trench like a tomato. They get a few potatoes and generally either do it right the following year or are convinced that it can't be done. Best was one like that who also only buried the seed pieces and long sprouts about 2 inches deep. Her reasoning was that she didn't want to dig so deep to find the potatoes. Finding them was not a problem!
Martin
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Post by gilbert on Mar 18, 2016 16:47:00 GMT -5
OK, that makes sense.
I'm wondering: both barrels and towers have spotty records. However, I've seen a few more successful barrels. Could it be that the sides shade the growing stems, making hilling every day a little less critical?
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Post by oldmobie on Mar 18, 2016 17:28:40 GMT -5
You guys have me curious now. I have a few plants from seed grown mini-tubers that I started too early. I'm afraid to transplant them outside, for fear the growth could get frozen off. They've gotten ridiculously long and skinny, trying to reach for more sunlight. I think I'll pot up a couple, really deep with just a few leaves sticking out. Your discussion makes me think it won't matter, since the stems are green, but I just wanna see what happens. If it's anything interesting, I'll report back.
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Post by nathanp on Mar 18, 2016 21:36:24 GMT -5
Oldmobie - if you can pull off a part of the stem with roots attached off the tuber, you can plant that without the tubers. That is called a PULL START. It will generally stay a single stemmed plant, and you can plant them closer together than tubers, but at 8 or 8 inch spacing, you can multiply your harvest by planting many more plants. Some of your's look like they could be ready now. Just bury the rooted section and several inches of the stem. Or pull them off the tubers now and put in separate pots for planting.
Then you can save the tuber and still plant that when you are ready.
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Post by paquebot on Mar 18, 2016 22:15:30 GMT -5
Gilbert, shade would not be as important as even moisture. Neither would be of any importance if no stolons were formed. Remember that the potato plant does not rely on photosynthesis to produce tubers. Tubers are formed as a result of nutrients, not the sun. That's why the gardener mentioned in my previous post got a load of potatoes from a stack of tires. There obviously was a deep bed of nutrients below that first tire and the growing plant responded by producing a tuber on every stolon. The plant was forced to produce more stolons by limiting the top growth.
The answers to success are all in that paragraph. Nobody is going to change how a potato plant grows, either domestic or wild. To obtain and end one must have the means. First is to consider that X x 4 production means X x 4 nutrients. Nutrients sufficient to produce only 4 or 5 tubers are not going to produce 16 or 20. And remember that all of those nutrients must be BELOW the seed piece.
Then there's the main reason why proper hilling results in a lot more tubers at various depths. It's because the portion of the stem which produces stolons is quite elastic in that it will continue to elongate as long as it is not exposed to sunlight. It does not necessarily produce more stolons as it is more like moving more of the original ones up as it stretches. Just as a potato has more eyes than needed, same goes for the stolons. Experiment, let a potato sprout in a paper bag until it also produces roots. Then count the stolon buds.
I don't think that any variety would have an advantage over another. Wild ones from South America start from seed and produce their tubers in shallow soil. Nobody has to plant them. Difference in most is that they will often root along the vine and produce more tubers at that point. John Best proved that the highly-modified Kennebec can do the same. If I were to advise on a specific variety, I could not. Instead, I would suggest any variety noted for producing a lot of tubers rather than just big ones. Those would naturally have more stolons which could be forced into production.
The bottom line is that there are so many factors that almost guarantee failure and then everyone looks in the wrong places for answers. The answers are all there but their problem is that they are too simple to be believed and yet so complicated to so many.
Martin
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Post by gilbert on Mar 18, 2016 22:25:19 GMT -5
Hello Martin and Nathan,
I just want to clarify that I have got your opinions right.
Nathan's position: For a successful (multilevel) plant a lot of breeding work will be necessary, to counter the prevailing tendency in potato breeding, which forces potatoes to have only one clump of stolons, right above the seed potato. However, as well as an ideal variety, a lot of ideal conditions would also be needed.
Martin's positions: Any potato could, at least in theory, produce many potatoes at different levels of the tower. However, there are so many needed conditions that successes are few and far between.
This whole process reminds me of something Carol Deppe pointed out, that any breeding project should be started by evaluating current material to see if the desired plant already exists. I guess this whole discussion is an attempt to see if the first, experimentation phase has already been done.
And by the way, thanks so much for keeping this conversation going! It is a really interesting thread.
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Post by gilbert on Mar 18, 2016 22:30:51 GMT -5
Oldmobie:
Let us know what happens! It would be even more interesting if we had a sun deprived plant of similar size to try at the same time.
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Post by nathanp on Mar 19, 2016 7:22:44 GMT -5
Gilbert, I am just looking over Curzio's notes and data. In 2011, his highest yield was 4lbs in a grow bag. www.kenoshapotato.com/stats/11SmartYieldB.pdfHe just told me he has had up to about 10 lbs in a bag several times, other years. I am trying to locate the varieties. He also claims that he has seen tubers as high as 30" high in tower, and that tubers marked HS (High Setting) in his variety list, have this trait. Here is his chart: www.curzio.com/N/PotatoProject.htmIn your case, if you are growing in tall containers, I would ignore everything that that does not say HS and is not long season.
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Post by gilbert on Mar 19, 2016 13:30:01 GMT -5
Hello Nathan,
Way back in the tread I posted a list I pulled out from Curzio's notes. Here is is below. But I have had little luck finding many of the varieties.
Blue Goose (3 seed pieces produced 11 pounds 13 oz) mostly large oblong tubers Up to Date (3 seed pieces produced 11 pounds 6 oz) mostly lumpy tubers Russian Banana (3 seed pieces produced 9 pounds 14 oz) medium fingerlings Batoche (3 seed pieces produced 8 pounds) mostly large round tubers Calico (3 seed pieces produced 7 pounds) mostly large, tapered tubers Kemerowski (3 seed pieces produced 7 pounds) mostly large tubers Mountain Rose (3 seed pieces produced 7 pounds) mostly large tubers Eersteling (3 seed pieces produced 6 pounds 14 oz.) in a size mix - matches Mt Rose as an early maturing variety Fortyfold (3 seed pieces produced 5 pounds 9 oz) many, mostly small, round tubers Dutch Blue (3 seed pieces produced 5 pounds 3 oz) many small, round tubers Papa Chonca (3 seed pieces produces 4 pounds 6oz) medium-small blue fingerlings - this yield is not impressive, but the vine is very late and the tuber set is shallow on long stolons Elmer's Blue (2 in-vitro seedlings produced 2 pounds 4 oz) - obviously a variety that needs further testing grown from tuber seed pieces - but the harvest from in-vitro seedling was really impressive - I observed long stolons and shallow tuber setting ... but most interestingly I counted 80 tubers in bite size or larger and 32 additional in pea size.
And the other varieties I chose, with notes from the database;
Adirondack Blue Sets tubers high, sets true seed Alby's Gold Sets tubers high, 55oz out of 3 All Blue, sets tubers high, sets true seeds? All Red, sets tubers high, sets true seeds? Anett sets tubers high, 70 oz from 4 Bauer Gruen Rotes Auge sets tubers high, 43 from 4, produces true seed even in bags.? Congo: sets tubers high Costanera Sets tubers high, tall vines, good heat tolerance, 52 oz out of 3 Dheera Sets tubers high, produces true seed Gardenfiller, aka Hibernian tubers higher and serial Goldsegen Sets tubers high, produces true seed Gurney's Everbearing opportunistic Ilona, sets tubers high, produces true seed Ilse's North German, sets tubers high, produces true seed Irish treasure, sets tubers high, opportunistic Isla Caucahua sets tubers high 18 oz from 1 Jewett, aka Blue Marker sets tubers high, produces true seed, 49 oz from 1 Kenya Baraka sets tubers high, one of the best for container growing Kerr's Pink sets tubers high, sets true seed McIntyre Blue sets tubers high, tall vines Morada Ojuda Sets tubers high, 140 small tubers in one bag Ozette Sets tubers high Papa Chonca good variety for containers, sets tubers high, very long stolons Purple Peruvian, sets tubers high Rattviks Rod Sets tubers high, long stolons Red Pontiac, sets tubers high, tall vines Riverwood (aka PI 607501) sets tubers high, sets true seed Sarpo Axona sets tubers high, 28 oz from 1 Sequoia sets tubers high, sets true seed Siberian, aka Fiery Eyes sets tubers high, tall vines, good container choice
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Post by nathanp on Mar 19, 2016 16:23:09 GMT -5
I would check SSE for some of these if you are interested. Curzio sells through SSE, but some of these may have been dropped by him. The European varieties are probably not available in the US unless you buy from a private collector/breeder. Blue Goose Up to Date - typically a European variety Russian Banana - I have this one. Should be commonly available. Good yields for a fingerling, might have potential. Batoche - typically a European variety Calico - I have this one, I consider it medium season, and not a long stolon variety. Sets tubers in one place. Kemerowski - Russian bred tuber, probably not available in the US. Short stolons. www.europotato.org/display_description.php?variety_name=KemerovskiiMountain Rose - should be commonly available, bred by Colorado State U. Eersteling - typically a European variety Fortyfold - typically a European variety Dutch Blue - possibly the same as Congo, and probably many synoyms. All Blue could be the same potato, same with Blue Marker and Jewett Papa Chonca - I have this one Elmer's Blue - lots of synonyms for this one. Purple Peruvian, Chris' Blue, Sisu, etc... I have at least two, maybe 3 that are, if not identical, very close to that. For your second list, I am growing a few of these. Here are my thoughts on these. Anett, Ozette, Morada Ojuda, Purple Peruvian, Sarpo Axona. Sarpo Axona, Anett, Purple Peruvian - I have grown all these, Purple Peruvian is the only one approaching long season. The others are not. Sarpo Axona is reasonably high yielding, but only a 90ish day potato. Anett is very low yielding and short season for me. I grew Purple Peruvian in a tower in 2014. Not good results. Stems rotted and died after being buried too deeply. The tuber exhausted itself trying to keep pushing through the soil as I kept hilling it. I am growing Ozette for the first time this year. It's genetics are interesting. Brought by the Spanish to the Pacific Northwest, it is very different genetically than commercial US/European potatoes. Same with Johnny Gunter, Doty Todd and a few others that were traditional native american varieties. Morada Ojuda is very long season, could be worth trying. It produces mostly 1" and smaller tubers, but yields decently by weight, and has the long stolon trait. The USDA-Grin notes on it put it in the VERY HIGH yield category.
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Post by gilbert on Mar 19, 2016 21:22:14 GMT -5
Hi Nathan,
Thanks for the advice as always.
I came across an English gardener stating that Sarpo Axona are not popular because they tend to keep growing in the Fall. However, he thought the extreme vigor and the enormous, weed suppressing tops were well worth it.
Do you think we could be discussing different varieties?
Interesting that all the "blue" varieties may be the same one.
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