Creating a cabbage landrace seedbank

[gilbert]

I'm worried that the current seedbank model for preserving genetic diversity is not working for some crops. Cabbage, and brassicas in general, seems to be one of them. They are less popular with home gardeners then some other crops, they are biennials needing overwintering for seed saving, and they are strong out crossers needing a large population to avoid inbreeding. In 2012 SSE only listed 42 cabbage varieties. Some of these are among the few OP cabbages commercially available. Many of the others were only being listed by one member, Andrey Baranovski from Belarus. Commercial seed companies, even fairly small ones, have mostly gone over to hybrid seed; this matters more then with most crops, since brassica hybrid varieties tend to be male sterile, either due to CMS or due to natural sterility. Thus their genetics are "locked up." Meanwhile, I have a suspicion that many of the surviving OP varieties have been bottlenecked or otherwise damaged; companies justify going over to F1s because of the low quality of OPs, which could very well be true. Very few people would probably want to save 100 plants of a given variety of cabbage, and even one bottleneck could do irreparable damage. (If any of the above is not true, let me know!)

Cabbage is a very valuable vegetable for cold climates, a nice compact ball of leafy goodness which can be easily stored for vitamins over the winter, and the basis for sauerkraut, which is an important part of the diet for many European cultures. It and its relatives, kale, broccoli, and Brussels sprouts, have to rank as one of the most impressive breeding achievements of all time; they are nothing like the wild cabbage plant. (Brussels sprouts and broccoli also seem to be in danger genetically. I know they could all be crossed to restore diversity, but the species as a whole seems to have lost a lot, and it would certainly be easier to keep the subtypes separate.) 

So I propose to collect as many types of cabbage as I can and let them all cross in a giant landrace, hopefully with enough plants per generation to maintain all the genetic  diversity. To make this easier, and to avoid the elimination of genetics not suitable to any one climate, I'd like to have collaborators on this in many different climates, so that we can all swap large amounts of seed back and forth. This would also make it financially easier to acquire as many varieties as possible. 

And now a confession; I've never had much luck with cabbage. However, that may be partially due to my preference for OP varieties. As I said, some of them seem to be damaged. Germination can be erratic, many plants seem stunted, and many fail to wrap themselves up. We shall see; but this is another reason why I need collaborators. 

I contacted Andrey Baranovski in Belarus; he has ten cabbage varieties most of them not in commercial circulation. 

Since we would only need a few seeds each of any given variety, I propose that anyone interested set about acquiring varieties, updating this thread to avoid too much duplication, and then we can swap seeds around. 

What other sources for unusual or rare cabbages do you know of? Does anybody know if there are non-sterile hybrids that would be worth adding? 

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I don't grow much cabbage, but when I do, it's OP, and it grows great for me. I don't have any reason to believe that OP seed is inherently prone to low germination rates, or that hybrids perform better.

[walt]

I agree, Joeseph, that there is no inherant reason that OP cabbage should have lower germination or adaptation than hybrids. But if some, or many, OP vareties have become somewhat, or very, inbred due generations of too-small population size, then one might well have problems as Gilbert says.  And such problems as Gilbert mentions would show up worse in areas where cabbage is less well adapted.
You have described your farm or gardeen as cooler, better for cabbages than some.
I am interested in a cabbage landrace as seedbank.  But I am interested in too many things to be involved inn everything.  I think this a good idea, provided there are enough people interested, interested enough to put work into it.  The same could be said about any crop though.
That said, I would think that such a landrace would need to broken up  into areas.  Some would need to be selecting for more cold tolerance, others would need better heat tolerance.
And people in great cabbage growing areas probably already have found a good OP cabbage for their area.

[reed]

I am very interested in mixing cabbage and other things into a cold tolerant landrace and so would like to get as much genetics as possible to add in at the start. I did some searching and came up with the below list of available varieties. The ones marked X are described as cold tolerant and I'm considering purchasing them. If I do I will have more of each than I need and would't mind trading the extras for something else. My next generation wouldn't be of much use cause I'm gonna let it cross with broccoli and other things.



docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FLsSZYi-Jlsj0mAOuqN0bPCIJOvPcANnd8iLzjeZJpQ/edit?usp=sharing

[billw]

Preserving germplasm and breeding (which is what you are doing by making a mass cross and establishing a landrace) are different things. If you try to preserve all of the diversity except climate adaptations, then you would really be throwing out some of the most valuable traits.

I'd say make your mass cross and share it widely to help spread those genes. Then, focus on developing the best locally adapted cabbage that you can. Breeding for climates other than your own is almost impossible. The best I hope for is to find traits that will prove suitable in other climates so that I can put them in the hands of someone who actually lives there and can work on selection. If you make a good mass cross and inspire ten people in different climates to carry through and breed locally adapted varieties, you will be doing much more to preserve and create new diversity than you would ever be likely to manage on your own. Trying to preserve all those genetics, while an admirable pursuit, would ultimately defeat your goal of producing a better cabbage, I think. The best thing that we can do to preserve genetics is to encourage more people to take up plant breeding. You can't bottle diversity.

[gilbert]

Hi everyone,

That make sense. I guess if there were a lot of collaborators, seed from all the different landraces could be mixed together if somebody wanted the full complement of diversity available.

I'm just trying to figure out how to preserve the maximum possible diversity for future use without using the current seed bank model, which seems flawed and expensive, making it more likely that hard to save crops like cabbage will continue to loose diversity.

In any case, if anybody wants to participate, let me know.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I am inundated with free seeds from a tremendous number of species. I attend seed swaps. People bring seeds that I don't particularly want or need, and offer to swap. I always accept the swap. The seeds get dumped into a common lot of seed for each species. I plant a few of them with my crops. Some of them end up getting included in my landraces, others self-eliminate, or get culled, or might share some pollen. Whatever. If I only plant 5% of strange seed, then it only affects 5% of my crop. Whatever, I can cull that out later.

Diversity is constantly flowing into my garden. I am constantly reducing the diversity in my garden by selection or culling.

I have a vast network of collaborators: Local collaborators, Internet collaborators, family collaborators. Seeds arrive from them on a regular basis. I bank them, I plant them, I re-gift them. Whatever. Just today, someone gifted me some runner bean seeds that have been in storage for 15 years, and are descended from what my grandfather grew. I have been looking for those seeds for years!

The local nurseries carry seeds from local and regional companies that have proven to be reliable in this area. Those varieties are often suitable for starting landraces. I have imported many landraces into my garden. I love them, because even if only a small percentage of seeds mature and reproduce, that's often all I need to start a new landrace. Gotta start somewhere. At least one plant has to reproduce.

I didn't intend to create a seed sharing network, it happened naturally as I talked with local friends, and corresponded with Internet friends. I'm not interesting in managing or promoting a seed sharing network. It's my belief that the best network is thousands of seed savers doing their own thing, and swapping seeds with other seed savers that are doing their own thing.

I see a lot of people in the seed-saving world that write like they are all alone: isolated. Going it alone. My personal world view is that I am working in a 3 dimensional spider web. Connected to local and far away seed savers by myriads of threads of collaboration and cooperation. I don't worry much about diversity, because for every mega-seed company that is attempting to narrow and corner the market, there are millions of human beings saving seeds in their own back yards. When they die, the seeds rarely go into the garbage, they tend to get donated to other gardeners. My grandfather's variety of scarlet runner beans will never be listed in a seed catalog, but it's genetics are still floating around.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

My swap lists almost always have an entry in them that says something like" "Landrace Seed From Any Species of Fruit or Vegetable".

That specifically says that I want crossed up, or genetically diverse seed, that would typically be deemed as "unfit" for sharing.

[gilbert]

I see a lot of people in the seed-saving world that write like they are all alone: isolated. Going it alone. My personal world view is that I am working in a 3 dimensional spider web. Connected to local and far away seed savers by myriads of threads of collaboration and cooperation. I don't worry much about diversity, because for every mega-seed company that is attempting to narrow and corner the market, there are millions of human beings saving seeds in their own back yards. When they die, the seeds rarely go into the garbage, they tend to get donated to other gardeners. My grandfather's variety of scarlet runner beans will never be listed in a seed catalog, but it's genetics are still floating around.

Joseph, I am really impressed by all you do to reconnect the spider web strands!

Do you think the picture painted above is true for all crops? I got the impression that some crops really are in trouble because backyarders typically don't bother. Or is even this just a surface impression? 

But I'd have to agree that as far as most vegetables are concerned, the heirloom seed/ genetic preservation folks are worried about nothing, and in many cases may inadvertently be part of the problem. 

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I frequently receive letters from people along the line of: "Thank your for telling me that it's OK that I've been allowing seeds to be promiscuously pollinated." They often say that they used to feel ashamed about saving impure seeds, and that the idea of saving seeds from truly open pollinated landraces was refreshing to them. Cause all of a sudden, they have gone from backwards sinners, to the vanguard of the genetic preservation movement.

It's interesting to me, that perhaps the most fragile and inbred crop that is commonly grown -- tomatoes -- is also the most popular for seed savers and heirloom enthusiasts. Tremendous effort is devoted to keeping tomatoes inbred. I just smile, and work towards creating tomatoes with a different pollination system.

Okra is perhaps the most genetically diverse crop that I have worked with. Genetically diverse within varieties, and between varieties. I see lots of diversity in some species, hardly any in other species. People tend to save seeds more often from annuals, but I receive plenty of seeds from biennial plants, and even from trees, which end up being generations long breeding projects. In my valley for example, there is a thriving pistachio breeding network. Perhaps some of my nieces, nephews, or grandchildren will carry on the work. If not, the descendants of my collaborators will, or even plain old strangers that become stewards over the multitude of trees that we are currently planting. Some of the trees will escape into the wild, and the project will continue, whether or not any human beings are ever involved in it again.

[philagardener]

Interesting about okra - is it a promiscuous pollinator?

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Dec 23, 2016 20:49:20 GMT -5 philagardener said:

Interesting about okra - is it a promiscuous pollinator?

Yes. Up to about 50% out-crossing.

[reed]

Found some more cabbage varieties and added them to the list linked above. I can't spend much money plus already have too many projects for the available space but adding more genes into my winter growing brassica patch is one I'm gonna follow up on. Even if I only get half dozen or so kinds I will have lots more seed than I can use so I'll post the extras for trade. In following seasons mine won't be any good for a cabbage landrace cause I'm mixing the whole species not just cabbage.

I hope to have good amount of seed to share in 2017 from a cabbage/kale/brussels sprout/broccoli mix that is growing right now. I'm looking for an overwintering plant that produces tasty stems and leaves in late winter and early spring or even during mid winter warm spells and then tasty seed pods. Enough about that here though, as this thread is for cabbage.

I'll keep adding more to the shared cabbage list as I find them.

If the idea of preserving varieties is for the romanticized family stories that go with them that is just silly as far as growing food goes. If the idea is to preserve genetic diversity in case it's needed someday I'd ask, what are they waiting for?

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I'm taking an approach similar to reed's. In the past century, it seems like the trend in plant breeding has been splitting and inbreeding. My intention with my plant breeding efforts is lumping: collecting diversity. I can't predict the future of diseases, pests, weather, or social preference. What I can predict, is that a variety with tremendous genetic diversity will be more likely to survive whatever changes it encounters. So I'm constantly thinking a thousand years into the future in my plant breeding efforts. I am generating millions of new varieties on my farm each year.

I'm also working on winter-hardy brassicas. I want fresh greens in very early spring, and into late winter. Some of the ancestors were heading cabbages, so some of the offspring may also be heading cabbages. Someone with an interest in heading cabbages could pull the cabbage type plants out of the landrace.

I haven't been working on a heading-cabbage landrace, because I haven't had a good way to store the heads until spring. If I were to start working on one now, I would choose to make it a winter-hardy heading-cabbage landrace, because then I wouldn't have to worry about storing the heads. They could take care of themselves.

[walt]

Dec 23, 2016 20:14:29 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

Okra is perhaps the most genetically diverse crop that I have worked with. Genetically diverse within varieties, and between varieties. I see lots of diversity in some species, hardly any in other species.

All true but also genetic diversity between species.
Chromosome counts reported from Africa, India, and Japan differ widely.  The count from Japan seems to be a diploid.  India seems to generally have an amphiploid type with chromosomes from 2 (unknown) species.  Africa, where okra is generally thought to have been domesticated, gives a number similar to those in India.  But in wetter parts of Africa, there is a new amphiploid species, with the old chromosomes from the older amphiploid African okra, plus the chromosomes from a species colonists introduced as an ornamental from India.  This relatively new species is called perennial okra, as in the tropics it lives about 18 months.  There are now many varieties of it.  Though not as many varieties as of the older, drought adapted African species.
I was breeding okra, tomatoes, onions and peppers in Niger 1978-1981.  At the time I left, taxonomists hadn't seperated out the different groups of okra, which I consider species.  Perhaps they have done so now.
But back to brassicas.