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Post by walt on Jan 12, 2017 13:04:01 GMT -5
I used to be an onion breeder, so I can answer some questions about onions. Other questions you asked I can only give guesses based on my studying the onion litterature 30 years ago. A lot of new information has been discovered since then. And some of your questions I'm just clueless about.
1. My guess is a strong yes, vegetatively grown alliums are true hybrids. There is no reason why there shouldn't be vegetately grown onions that are inbred, but such would be less vigorous on the average, and people would have discarded them in favor of their hybrid relatives. So I would expect the first generation seedlings from them to vary. How much I don't know.
I know nothing about the differences between true shallots and non-true shallots. I've never grown a shallot in my life.
2. I read that some will self, some are male sterile, and some have pollen but will not set seeds. So some will self, many won't. It is possible that some have good pollen and will set seeds but are self incompatible. I have seen nothing about that so I think that is generally not the case.
Selfing one clone of garlic should give variation in the first generation, but it will likely give some inbreeding depresion. Crossing 2 clones of garlic should give some segregation in the first generation, and not have inbreeding depression. Unless the 2 clones are closely related.
3. Probably the answer is the same as 2. above.
If 2 distinct types of yellow potato onions are crossed, I would expect variation in the first generation, as I would expect the 2 clones to each be hybrids. How much variation will depend on how closely related they are. And you would have to do DNA tests to find out. Or just do the cross and see that way.
4. I have only grown a couple of kinds of potato onions. And I've never shopped for them. I have no idea how many geneticly distinct kinds there are. My guess is that unless you have reason to think clones from different sources are different, they are likely the same.
5. If you have only one clone and it blooms and you have no other clone to pollinate it with, what is the point? You can still get seeds, if it is both male and female fertile.
Such seedlings could be virus free. So they might be more vigorous.
They might have different recessive traits which might be desirable.
You might cross the potato onion with a regular onion, bringing in new traits. I don't know if the F1 would include potato onions, but if not, the F2 or backcross to the potato onion might.
6. 7. 8. 9. I don't know.
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Post by richardw on Jan 12, 2017 14:37:58 GMT -5
My main success so far is with the walking onions, but at this stage there seems to be no clear distinction how the stabilization of this hybrid will pan out given that templeton has most had identical offspring where ive had wide variation in type. I would like know if there's been anyone who has taken walking onions further through none asexual reproduction. |
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Post by billw on Jan 12, 2017 14:42:59 GMT -5
1.) Are vegetatively produced alliums like garlic, potato onions, and "non-true" shallots considered to be natural hybrids? Meaning that isolated, pure true seed obtained from garlic, potato onion, and older strains of non-true shallot plants when sown will automatically produce offspring with varying characteristics? Generally, yes, they are hybrids. Of course, it is possible that isolated populations have reproduced from seed often enough to be substantially true breeding. Based on my experience with garlic, potato onions, and shallots, I feel confident that most are hybrids. 2.) More specifically, when garlic umbels are manipulated to produce true seed, do the plants have the ability to self pollinate? If not then I am assuming multiple plants of the same variety can cross pollinate each other. Would true seed from those cross pollinated plants produce offspring with varying characteristics, or would all seeds produce true to type? If two varieties of garlic cross pollinate will that create true seed that will produce offspring with varying characterstics or will the first generation be a hybrid of identical offspring and then subsequent generations will have varying characteristics? I haven't grown tons of garlic from my seed, but in my limited experience, if the flowers produce pollen, then the variety can self-pollinate and the offspring are variable. 3.) Same questions regarding potato onions. When the plants bloom on occasion do they have the ability to self pollinate? If not then I am assuming multiple plants of the same strain can cross pollinate each other. Would true seed from those cross pollinated plants produce offspring with varying characteristics (because they are natural hybrids), or would all seeds produce true to type? If two genetically distinct strains of yellow potato onion cross pollinate will that create true seed that will produce offspring with varying characterstics or will the first generation be a hybrid of identical offspring and then subsequent generations will have varying characteristics? Potato onions will happily self-pollinate. My first seeds were all from the common yellow potato onion and produced mostly whites, yellows, and a few reds. 4.) What is the likelihood that some of the multiple sources of supply for yellow potato onion sets might have stock that is genetically distinct from my stock that has basically been isolated since the 1950s? Is there any value in collecting yellow potato onion sets from multiple sources in the hopes that some of them might be genetically different from each other, so that they can cross pollinate if I ever get another mass blooming event and create even more diverse or at least healthier offspring? Pretty much impossible to say without genotyping. I grew six different accessions of yellow potato onion, including two from Europe, and I didn't see any differences between them. That doesn't mean that there weren't any though. 5.) Being that vegetatively produced alliums are clones, then how can cross pollination of flowers of the same strain be of any benefit if a plant of that strain cannot self pollinate? Or is it simply an issue of the timing between individual plants of when the male and female parts of the flower are conducive to the fertilization process? I'm not sure I completely followed this. I don't know all of the mechanisms of male sterility in alliums, but I have not seen pollen production restored following a cross with a male sterile variety. 6.) Regarding older non-true shallot strains, when the plants bloom on occasion do they have the ability to self pollinate? If not then I am assuming multiple plants of the same strain can cross pollinate each other. Would true seed from those cross pollinated plants produce offspring with varying characteristics (because they are natural hybrids), or would all seeds produce true to type? The few shallots that I have managed to flower have self pollinated without any difficulty. 7.) Approximately when were the first "non-true" shallots developed? Were the older "non-true" shallots originally selected from yellow potato onion true seed growouts? A. cepa shallots have probably been around just as long as A. oschaninii shallots, but I don't really know. 8.) What is the difference between the older "non-true" shallots and modern F1 "non-true" shallots? How are the modern F1 "non-true" shallot varieties being created? As far as I know, only the gray shallot (Allium oschaninii) is considered a "true shallot". Everything else is Allium cepa or a hybrid. Hybrids of A. cepa and A. oschaninii are considered to be sterile due to chromosomal mismatch. 9.) It is an absolute guarantee that true shallots will never bloom? There is no record of them ever blooming, or is it that they can occasionally bloom but the flowers are sterile? Is the true shallot the only allium that has proven (or assumed) to be incapable of blooming? If yes, doesn't that seem a bit strange? Perhaps it is simply that the correct conditions have never been met for such an event to occur and be witnessed by a human at the same time. Do they still exist in the wild and if yes are they still very similar to the "domesticated" ones currently available? They can bloom, but they are considered sterile. I would never declare any plant absolutely sterile without a mighty pile of evidence. I breed a lot of plants that used to be considered sterile. |
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Post by reed on Jan 12, 2017 15:14:55 GMT -5
P.S. Just going to throw it out there, I wonder if a small treatise, writeup, or FAQ could be developed regarding these questions as they relate to true seed efforts of the different allium categories consisting of garlic, potato onions, shallots, walking onions, etc., in order to clarify basic issues for entry-level folks (like me). IMO knowledge is the first ingredient leading to successful outcomes regarding obtaining and growing out true seed. To have the best chance of success a person has to know what he/she is doing, how best to do it and why, and what results should be expected. I have some time available, I would volunteer to do such a writeup if I could get the assistance of some of the people here on HG who are most knowledgeable regarding these subjects, and proper credit would be given to anyone who participates. Knowledge certainly is a wonderful thing but I am so far behind I don't even know the difference between the things mentioned let alone probability of a particular outcome from seed grown plants or crosses. Add to that the apparent lack of work done regarding the topic and the few folks who do have knowledge really, too a large degree only have it as applies their soil and climate so it would really be just a general guideline anyway. So, my approach, recognizing I don't know what I'm doing anyway regarding anything specific and I don't care about accurate identification of what grows is to just pant it see what happens. I realize this isn't a realistic approach for a lot of folks, especially market growers or people breeding for specific traits but one thing I have learned is if I wait till I know what I maybe should know, I'll never get started. That don't mean I don't look forward to reading the finished literature, this forum is with little doubt the best place to gather input. The only ting I can offer is that the seeds you sent me, if direct planted in the fall will grow and stay green despite being repeatedly subjected to nearly 70 F swings in temperature, I'm very pleased with that. |
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Post by templeton on Jan 12, 2017 22:40:57 GMT -5
I can't add too much to the above. Based on my experience growing out Green Mountain potato onion seedlings the original strain that Kelly had been growing vegetatively for years must have been heterozygous at a number of loci (=hybrid in above posts), since the seedlings produced a large variation in colour, storage life, size, growth form and reproductive strategy. As richard noted, the one seedling i managed to get from my topset onions after furious de-bulbing seems almost indistinguishable from its parent, suggesting it was homozygous for most of the important genes - I'm assuming it crossed with itself. Perhaps in the future i will do some more de-bulbing and look for crossing material. For a good list of edible alliums check out the list here www.plantnames.unimelb.edu.au/Sorting/Allium.htmlAs for a reference - I certainly only know enough to make a fool of myself  T |
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Post by steev on Jan 13, 2017 0:53:02 GMT -5
As I've posted before: Damn!; this forum is a locus of information, expertise, and ignorance; truly a roiling mix of experts and earnest tyros; what else would landrace gardening be about? How can agricultural knowledge progress if all are marching in lock-step orthodoxy?
T: Make a fool of yourself? Please; you are an amateur. I do it practically professionally, on a regular basis; don't try to take a bite out of my shtick.
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Post by reed on Jan 15, 2017 10:44:43 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies, they are appreciated. The reason I want to gather the basic, known information in one location is because I have spent a lot of time chasing all over the web regarding these subjects and I have come across a lot of (unintentional) misinformation as well as a lot of decent questions by folks with beginner and intermediate skill levels that go unanswered. I would have liked to have heard the answers to some of those questions myself. I also find many questions to be answered seemingly authoritatively but incorrectly by people who it turns out really do not know what they are talking about. Certainly a lot of the information I seek is not absolutely necessary, a person can just take a shot at growing something. Odds are they will fail, though, and then likely just give up and move on. I used to be that way when I was younger, wasted a lot of time and effort but I did learn things. I think a little knowledge, research, and forethought increases the chances of success out in the garden, and I think amateur gardeners might want to draw that conclusion sooner rather than later. Only so many growing seasons in a human lifespan... As for me I am trying to figure out just why I am focusing on growing out garlic and potato onions from true seed. Curiosity and fascination got me started, and that is usually the way it goes for me, but what is the end goal and is it realistic and can it be achieved? I do not feel I even know enough about the biology of these plants to draw competent conclusions and set a goal that is realistic and attainable. This has something to do with age, with every new interest or project I have been asking myself what is the point, what is the end goal, and can it be achieved in a realistic amount of time or in the diminishing number of growing seasons I may have left? Or is it going to be one more unfinished gardening project. I think these are realistic questions to be asking myself, and I expect knowledge will give me the answers and guide me in a direction. For me I think sometimes being fixated on the notion I have to have all the information before I start has kept me from trying, nothing insures failure more than that. I am also finding now that concerning plants, nothing answers questions better than seeds in dirt. Good old fashioned trial and error, not at all too diminish a little cheat sheet of knowledge, when available and applicable. Speaking of which, I suspect onion seedlings transplant fairly easily, do you find that to be the case? I had a few seedlings frost heave out of the ground and they seem fine after being stuck back in. I also expect that soon enough you will answer your questions yourself and in a way that has actual value to those you pass the information on too. |
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Jan 15, 2017 20:42:09 GMT -5
reed: My experience is that onion seedlings transplant extremely easily.
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Post by richardw on Jan 15, 2017 23:25:25 GMT -5
Yes, but they transplant much better if soil is damp and the weather is likewise, if i tried to plantout during low humidity gale windy weather like it is at the moment, they dont do well.
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Post by templeton on Jan 16, 2017 0:06:10 GMT -5
Only so many growing seasons in a human lifespan... ... but what is the end goal and is it realistic and can it be achieved? ... in a realistic amount of time or in the diminishing number of growing seasons I may have left? Or is it going to be one more unfinished gardening project. I think these are realistic questions to be asking myself, and I expect knowledge will give me the answers and guide me in a direction. True potato onion seed story - I just wanted some big potato onions, and everything I'd seen was tiny, until kelly came along. I still haven't got big spud onions, but I've got some new topsetters, that make HUGE bulbs in the second year. - a project i didn't know i needed until i tried something else. And what fun just checking out what came out of the crosses - like a kid unwrapping a christmas present in slow motion. Sometimes its the unintended outcomes that are the best. Ditto with my dwarf tomato breeding. My hypertendril yellow snow pea project was just a hangover mistake, if i recall. Go for it, Toomanyirons ...and really, when is a vege breeding project actually finished? None of mine are going to reach perfection in my lifetime, i reckon. |
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Post by billw on Jan 16, 2017 0:43:59 GMT -5
I think of plant breeding as a kind of exploration more than anything. Sure, I hypothesize how various phenotypes might combine to provide the traits that I am looking for, but most of the interesting developments come about just by making lots of crosses and observing them closely. Probably the most valuable skill in plant breeding is recognizing when you have something good, particularly if it is something that you weren't looking for. It isn't always easy to see what you don't expect.
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