Differing "true leaf" Emergence Phenotypes

[Day]

I'll try to let the photos do most of the talking, though the only camera I have is the one on my phone, so I apologize for any poor quality. I first noticed this differing pattern of 2nd leaves emerging in pairs with my Gete Okosomin squash seedling.


(Gete Okosomin was something of an internet frenzy a while back, as it was inaccurately claimed to have been found in an 800 year old clay ball, blah blah. In reality, it is simply a very old variety of maxima squash preserved and bred for generations by native Miami people, etc.)

Here's what I found interesting -- all the other maxima squash I've planted this season create their first first few leaves in the pattern below:



The above is a gold nugget squash, only a few days older than the Gete Okosomin at the top of the post. You'll notice that the gold nugget seems to create and open a single leaf at a time, creating a back-and-forth pattern of leaf emergence.

Contrarily, and differently than any of the other maxima I've planted this season, the Gete Okosomin seems to reveal it's true leaves in pairs. 1-1, 2-2, etc.

Here's a close up of the next leaves to emerge from the Gete Okosomin, taken just a few minutes ago:



The leaves seem to form in pairs and emerge and grow outwards at much the same rate. I did not get a comparable photo of the Nugget, since they are not in the exact same stage of growth. But I will post a close up of the Nugget's leaf emergence in the next couple days when it's clearer.

My original thinking went as follows: Gete Okosomin, while not rediscovered in an ancient clay ball, etc. etc., does seem to possess a differing growth pattern from other maxima squash I have grown. Perhaps the double-emerging of true leaves is an older trait in squash. Due to Gete Okosomin's cultivation and preservation by native peoples in relatively isolation for so long, perhaps it has retained this trait that has otherwise disappeared from most/all modern commercial squash.

However --

I then did a quick walk around my garden.

Zatta cross melon seedling

(terrible shot, but there's a trellis in the way and I had to hold out the phone and hope it was pointed right. I tried to get a close up of the leaves (there are two emerging at once, like the Gete above) but my phone insisted on focusing on the dirt, not the plant. This is the best I could get)


Magpie Bush Bean



Now, the Melon and Bean examples above are only the two I've seen so far on a quick walk about. The 1-2-3-4 leaf emergence pattern is by far the most common, but noticing a few examples of the 1-1,2-2, pattern in other species has me curious.

Ultimately, I wonder whether or not this leaf display is a result of genetic factors or simply external forces ie. the environment. I also wonder if this growth pattern will continue throughout the plant's life, and/or will effect future vine growth, flower distribution, etc. Most important of all, does it effect the plants ability to survive, positively or negatively, in any way?

Has anyone encountered similar leaf emergence patterns in their gardens? Or, does anyone have any book-learning insight as to why this may be occurring? I'd love to learn more on whether this is a simple, throw-away genetic fluke or a trait that could be useful/deterimental in someway to the plant or to my gardening practices regarding it.


(You'll also have to forgive me for all the non-technical terms I'm using. Inform me of the correction ones, if you know them!)

[walt]

Interesting.
I have never paid such close attention to my plants at that stage of growth.
I have only one comment on a possible value to this type of leaf growth.
The plant might get a given number of leaves out and soaking up the sunlight. speeding early growth.  And with twice the number of leaves, therefore twice the number of leaf axils. it might have twice the number of potential flower buds.
Possibly on the down side, maybe this trait isn't common in squash because it's leaves are more crowded and they shade each other.  Possibly the fruit need to be spaced out more along the stem, so crowding more fruit into a given space is not a good thing.
Possibly, the gene(s) that influence this triat have some other effects that make it desirable, or undesirable.
Please watch it and keep us informed.
I look foreward to other comments by other people.  Maybe someone has seen this and knows all about it.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

WOW!! I am actually growing that squash this year. But i didn't pay attention to it's leaf pattern! I LOVE that trait!! I call it the Double-Leaf trait! (DL).

I first noticed it in my Wild Pueblo variety of squash!! It's a trait i would like to keep! I sent all of my Wild Pueblo seed to Joseph to try and grow. Hopefully they grow well enough that he keeps it as a variety and that trait survives! Yeah instead of one true leaf it sprouts TWO of equal size!!

alanbishop.proboards.com/post/70111/thread

Wild Pueblo Squash with the "Double Leaf" trait:


In the case of Wild Pueblo and squash, i'm pretty sure it's just a rare genetic phenotype that is more common in older native american squashes. Up until now i only thought it was in Wild Pueblo the wild squash recovered from Southern Utah. But i like it! Not sure, but i feel like it helps the squash take off faster as it can take in twice the amount of sunlight it would otherwise at that stage. But that's just my own biased supposition. Either way i like the look of it! It adds character!

[Day]

walt - my thoughts too, regarding pros and cons. One thing I do like about the double leaf pattern is that the seedling never finds itself in the unfortunate state of opening its first leaf away from the angle of the sun. With two, one of them is always correctly positioned. The gain might be infinitesimal, however. Similarly, I must wonder why most commercial squash does not have this trait. Perhaps it was lost by accident through selective breeding, or perhaps the genes are linked to other traits, one that are perhaps less desirable for a commercial squash. Interesting to speculate! I wish I could find more info on it.


keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) Hey! Go figure we'd be growing the same thing! And double go figure that there'd already be a post about it on here. This site is truly amazing.

Since the two leaves on Wild Pueblo are so large so early i am forced to wonder if it is going to be a vigorous grower.

Did that end up being the case? I haven't worked my way through the whole thread you linked yet, just your specific post, so forgive if the answer is already in there (that's my after dinner homework reading). I have to agree with you, I'm quite taken by the appearance. If nothing else I like the symmetry of it, from a purely aesthetic stand point. And if you found the trait in Wild Pueblo and I in Gete Okosomin, it would make sense, seeing as I'll take an unfounded leap and assume they probably have a closer DNA profile than, say, a Big Max Pumpkin, to the 'original' squash.

Which makes me all the more curious at the Double Leafing melon and bean I found. Would the same rules apply? I might be able to get there with the Zatta cross melon, as perhaps blending the genes of two disparate varieties had some unique, more primitive results (vague, I know). But the magpie bean, so far as I can tell (apart from the double leaves) is growing true to type.

Curious, curious...


EDIT: Finished the Thread -- Reed please tell me there's another thread or board somewhere the gives a conclusion to your Hopi White, Hopi Black, Wild Pueblo grow out?! I feel like someone made a really cool new TV show and I was halfway through the season then, poof, all the episodes vanished. Don't do this to me. I must know 

[steev]

Well damn, Day; you may not be "eddicated", but you are clearly observant and motivated; there is much to be said for self-motivated auto-didacts, if only that they aren't constrained by prevailing dogma.

I've never been much inclined to stick with the herd when there are blankets being waved at us; preferring to wander off into the chaparral; it's a tad lonely, and maybe I'm a jerk, but I'm not yet jerky.

[reed]

Aug 11, 2017 20:28:32 GMT -5 Day said:

EDIT: Finished the Thread -- Reed please tell me there's another thread or board somewhere the gives a conclusion to your Hopi White, Hopi Black, Wild Pueblo grow out?! I feel like someone made a really cool new TV show and I was halfway through the season then, poof, all the episodes vanished. Don't do this to me. I must know 

Wern't me on the squash thread. I'm very much a novice on squash and not much chance of that changing since the arrival a few years ago of some kind of stink bug creature that totally destroys them. Your other posts have inspired me to try to find time to go back and do some updates on my corn threads.

I never paid much attention to how leaves are spaced but I have some volunteer beans that just came up and went out and looked and the first true leaves look opposite each other, will watch to see what happens next. 

Sweet potatoes on the other hand, in my observation, except for the cotyledons never have opposite leaves. 

  

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Aug 11, 2017 20:28:32 GMT -5 Day said:

Since the two leaves on Wild Pueblo are so large so early i am forced to wonder if it is going to be a vigorous grower.

Did that end up being the case? I haven't worked my way through the whole thread you linked yet, just your specific post, so forgive if the answer is already in there (that's my after dinner homework reading). I have to agree with you, I'm quite taken by the appearance. If nothing else I like the symmetry of it, from a purely aesthetic stand point. And if you found the trait in Wild Pueblo and I in Gete Okosomin, it would make sense, seeing as I'll take an unfounded leap and assume they probably have a closer DNA profile than, say, a Big Max Pumpkin, to the 'original' squash.

Which makes me all the more curious at the Double Leafing melon and bean I found. Would the same rules apply? I might be able to get there with the Zatta cross melon, as perhaps blending the genes of two disparate varieties had some unique, more primitive results (vague, I know). But the magpie bean, so far as I can tell (apart from the double leaves) is growing true to type.

Curious, curious...


EDIT: Finished the Thread -- [Andrew] please tell me there's another thread or board somewhere the gives a conclusion to your Hopi White, Hopi Black, Wild Pueblo grow out?! I feel like someone made a really cool new TV show and I was halfway through the season then, poof, all the episodes vanished. Don't do this to me. I must know 

Ironically when i first saw the Gete Oskomin or whatever it's called my first thought was that it was related to Wild Pueblo depsite it being very different in shape. Several genetic similarities were apparent from the get go, so i'm honestly not surprised they both have the double leaf trait at this point. Take a look at some of my other Wild Pueblo pictures and let me know if you agree.

Haha, yeah there were other posts on here. I think they are all scattered, but i will do my best to find some links for you. A basic summary is that the Wild Pueblo was not as vigorous as what i may have expected, but still an interesting variety. Lots of interesting rare traits in squash. Other than the double leaf trait i noticed some had beautiful orange-white striped patterns, some were all orange with the precocious yellow gene, and some had silver leaves. LOTS of genetic variety! Especially if accidentally crossed now... One that i grew later was HUGE! and may have been some sort of cross, but i'm still flabbergasted as to how. The shape of the presumed hybrid had a coloring kinda inbetween Hopi White and Wild Pueblo, but the shape and size was closer to Hopi Black with the ribbing despite Hopi Black being a moshata and not a maxima. Curious to see what Joseph gets this year if they show up.

The Hopi Black was a charming variety i would love to try growing again. moshata.

The Hopi White was actually a very viney vigorous grower setting multiple fruits per vine sometimes. Lots of plump seeds. Good seed roasting variety.

farm9.staticflickr.com/8309/7978571660_0a4af4c429.jpg
farm9.staticflickr.com/8314/8058377987_95f863db41.jpg

keen101.wordpress.com/2015/11/29/wild-pueblo-squash-variety-2015/
alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/6626/squash?page=2
alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/8499/wild-pueblo-squash
alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/6946

encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS9iaLFsneieUis2TuMYeQ4Rt9UzNgp1sDU0CmWdyyURudq_bhqtQ

[Day]

steev -

I've never been much inclined to stick with the herd when there are blankets being waved at us; preferring to wander off into the chaparral; it's a tad lonely, and maybe I'm a jerk, but I'm not yet jerky.

That was funny. touché


reed oh man, so sorry! I was literally browsing through your garden report thread again while typing that post, so I must have unconsciously written your name instead of keen101. That's mildly embarrassing!

But yes, please do keep me/us/the world informed as to your corn projects. I keep bouncing back to those boards, gathering knowledge and inspiration for my own projects. And I'm also just damn curious!

keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) - very interesting! I think I might have misread then, because was it the Hopi Black that you were curious might have been the same thing as the Zuni? But here you mention it as a moschata, so perhaps I'm remembering wrong. Or is it like Tetsukabuto, and a sterile maxima x moschata cross?

Thanks for the links! I'll go check those out now.


P.S. - Question for everyone, should I be tagging you guys with each post? I know every forum has it's own internal social protocol, so I don't went to be sending notifications left and right if it's unnecessary. But old habits die hard, so I tend to tag people (@ + Name) automatically, without really thinking about it. Useful? Annoying? Let me know ~

P.P.S - What's this precocious yellow gene I keep reading about? My interest in thoroughly spiked.

[andyb]

I noticed opposite first trifoliate leaves on one of my Blue Speckled Tepary beans a couple of weeks ago. All of the other young bean plants I had growing at the time had alternate trifoliate leaves. I have a sibling of the Blue Speckled Tepary plant growing, but it's pretty mature and I couldn't get a look at the old leaves beneath the mass of newer growth.

[Day]

andyb - I'll admit I haven't worked with Tepary beans yet. But this re-occurrence of 'opposite first trifoliate leaves' in so many different species of plants has got me very curious, especially concerning inbreeders. Planting the next gen from a fluke 'double-leafer' from an inbreeder would be very interesting - as, unless my logic is faulty (very possible), the offspring should with almost certainty share the same trait. I suppose selfing an outbreeder may be similar, but there could still be a high level of heterozygous genes in an OP variety, where it's more likely with inbreeders that most or all of the genes will segregated out into AA and aa. Unless the double leaf tendency relies somehow on a heterozygous gene combination...

Is the Blue Speckled Tepary a cross of your own creation, or a standard variety?

[Day]

So I went out to check on my OFTL (opposite first trifoliate leaves) Magpie bean and grab some photos. I didn't think to take some pics of a standard bean for comparison, my apologies for that... as well as that horrible acronym above. We'll have to come up with something more clever. OpFiTrLe? I'm useless.




And here are a few close-ups. Sorry about the fingers/blurriness, my phone camera was determined to focus on the dirt, not the plant.




Also, an interesting pattern of whatever these barb things are:

[andyb]

Blue Speckled Tepary is standard variety. I originally got my seed from Native Seeds/Search, but it's the variety I see most often available from other seed companies. My impression is that Blue Speckled Tepary is one of the varieties that grows best outside of the natural range in the Southwest US and Northern Mexico. Teparies in general might grow well for you in LA; they're very heat and drought-tolerant.

It would be interesting to slice the stem and leaf bases of one of your beans lengthwise to see if the internode is just really short or if the leaves are really opposite. steve1 stained some cross-sections of peas to highlight parchment in the pods a couple of years ago. Not sure what stain he used, or if that's up your alley, but he talks about it on this thread: alanbishop.proboards.com/thread/8445/loss-purple-gene-peas. Third page or so.

BTW, I did some googling and it looks like the term for those spiky things is stipules.

[steev]

I've fooled around with teparies; Blue Speckled being the most successful for me; there is a thread about teparies here.

[philagardener]

Blue Speckled Tepary even gave me a good crop in Philly a few years ago - that's adaptable. I had a hard time getting seedlings to germinate in a wet spell (the seeds just rotted in the unfamiliar wet ground) but a few made it through and then took off in our summer heat. Really small seeds, however, so I moved on to other beans.

[Day]

I might have to look into Tepary beans. Anything that likes being thirsty and sunburned will love my plot.

andyb - Stipules, thank you! I should have done the looking-up myself, but I passed the buck. Much obliged.

As for the staining, I just finished reading through the thread you linked. I don't have a complete grasp on the process. Most of the images lead to 'file not found,' which further increased the difficulty of understanding. They seem to be talking mostly about staining pods, unless I'm missing something.

That said, I'd definitely be willing to attempt at, so long as the process does not terminate the plant. I only have the single off-type specimen with OFTL right now. I'd like to ensure it has time to fully mature, so I can observe it all stages of future growth, as well as give it time to set seed. I'm curious to see if the progeny express the same trait. But when it's time to pull the plant, and after I better understand the process, I'll gladly do some arts&crafts with a leaf base. Sounds fun!