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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Oct 29, 2017 22:09:29 GMT -5
Embarking on a new breeding project. Finally have confirmed crossed seeds from some red-seeded citrons with the landrace watermelons. Had a few red seeds collected from the ones i planted last season. This season the seeds were NOT red. They were all crazy colors and patterns. Some black-red, some pure black, some gray, some mottled brownish, etc. Originally wanted to do this cross because i wanted watermelons with red seeds and watermelons with frost tolerance. The citrons are supposed to be frost tolerant, though not edible. The fruits really are white rock hard flesh with no flavor. But i'm optimistic i can select something cool out of these eventually. I noticed the citrons did very well this year in my climate and soil and even produce nice full size fruits even when crowded by other watermelon plants. I think these are genetics worth folding into my watermelon landrace and/or creating a separate breeding project. Looking forward to seeing what these do.  20170927_175812 by Andrew Barney, on Flickr  20170927_175805 by Andrew Barney, on Flickr |
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Post by walt on Oct 30, 2017 15:11:59 GMT -5
There is a book, "Wide Hybridzaton in the Soviet Union". That is more or less the name. It has a chapter on watermelon x citron results. They got some good watermelons that stored well into the winter.
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Post by reed on Oct 31, 2017 8:08:32 GMT -5
Interesting project, I think I have heard the name citron melon but had no idea what it was. Getting cold tolerance into watermelons sounds like a great thing to work on. Hope it works out good.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 3, 2017 12:29:03 GMT -5
There is a book, "Wide Hybridzaton in the Soviet Union". That is more or less the name. It has a chapter on watermelon x citron results. They got some good watermelons that stored well into the winter. Cool! i tried searching for the book. Couldn't find it. But that is awesome to hear! |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 3, 2017 12:31:57 GMT -5
Interesting project, I think I have heard the name citron melon but had no idea what it was. Getting cold tolerance into watermelons sounds like a great thing to work on. Hope it works out good. Thanks Reed! Yeah, honestly though after growing the citron melons i'm not even so much as interested in the supposed cold/frost tolerance as i am with the genetics that give them such a good root system and ability to grow well in even poor soil and crowded conditions. Those are traits i need in my watermelon. Citron melons are touted as a good rootstock for grafting watermelons on because they don't make them taste like pumpkins but help them to grow well. I can now see why. |
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Post by ferdzy on Nov 5, 2017 13:47:21 GMT -5
I know that the very popular (with reason!) Crimson Sweet has citron in the background. Like, 6 generations back, in the background. Great-great-great grandparent was a melon called Conqueror, which was a cross between a melon called Eden and a Citron (seeds unspecified). I believe it was suggested that this has a lot to do with why Crimson Sweet is so widely adapted and tolerant.
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Post by walt on Nov 5, 2017 15:13:39 GMT -5
There is a book, "Wide Hybridzaton in the Soviet Union". That is more or less the name. It has a chapter on watermelon x citron results. They got some good watermelons that stored well into the winter. Cool! i tried searching for the book. Couldn't find it. But that is awesome to hear! It was published in the USSR and translated into English in Isreal. I read it in the Kansas State University library back in 1976-8. Then when I visited again in 1982, I grabbed it again, and noticed it had last been checked out, by me, in 1978. Not a popular book. The place I worked at then, the Land Institute, acquired a copy. I don't know how to get it now. I'll look around for it. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 5, 2017 17:01:10 GMT -5
It was published in the USSR and translated into English in Isreal. I read it in the Kansas State University library back in 1976-8. Then when I visited again in 1982, I grabbed it again, and noticed it had last been checked out, by me, in 1978. Not a popular book. The place I worked at then, the Land Institute, acquired a copy. I don't know how to get it now. I'll look around for it. cool. Yeah that would be awesome. I figured it had been translated. If you can figure out what the exact English title is or the original in Russian i might be able to track it down. EDIT: might have found it. searchit.lib.ksu.edu/primo_library/libweb/action/display.do?tabs=detailsTab&ct=display&fn=search&doc=01KSU_ALMA21167737350002401&indx=2&recIds=01KSU_ALMA21167737350002401&recIdxs=1&elementId=1&renderMode=poppedOut&displayMode=full&frbrVersion=&frbg=&&vl(1347074155UI1)=all_items&dscnt=0&vl(1UIStartWith0)=contains&scp.scps=scope%3A%28ksu_libguides%29%2Cscope%3A%2801KSU_ALMA%29%2Cscope%3A%2801KSU%29%2Cscope%3A%2801KSU_DSPACE%29%2Cprimo_central_multiple_fe&tb=t&vl(312793377UI0)=any&vid=KSUD&mode=Basic&srt=rank&tab=default_tab&dum=true&vl(freeText0)=Wide%20Hybridization&dstmp=1509919632059&gathStatIcon=true Title: Wide hybridization of plants : (Otdalennaya gibridizatsiya rastenii) Proceedings of the Conference on Wide Hybridization of Plants and Animals; collection of reports Author: Soveshchanie po otdalennoĬ gibridizat︠s︡ii rasteniĬ i zhivotnykh ((1956 : Moscow, R.S.F.S.R.) Nikolaĭ Vasilʹevich T︠S︡it︠s︡in 1898-; National Science Foundation (U.S.); Akademii︠a︡ nauk SSSR.; Vsesoi︠u︡znai︠a︡ akademii︠a︡ selʹskokhozi︠a︡ĭstvennykh nauk imeni V.I. Lenina. Subjects: Plant hybridization Publisher: Jerusalem, Published for the National Science Foundation, Washington, by the Israel Program for Scientific Translations; available from Office of Technical Services, U.S. Dept. of Commerce, Washington Creation Date: 1962 Format: 364 pages : illustrations, tables. ; 25 cm. Language: English;Russian |
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Post by walt on Nov 6, 2017 14:00:38 GMT -5
That's it. Thanks. Now to find a source for it.
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Post by gilbert on Nov 6, 2017 21:54:47 GMT -5
My library system is ordering it for me; it should be here in a few weeks. They are ordering it from Colorado state university.
Thanks for bring it up!
What was the flesh quality like this year on the citron x watermelon hybrids?
I'm looking forward to trying out the seeds you shared!
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andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Nov 6, 2017 22:04:29 GMT -5
I ordered the one and only copy available through Amazon yesterday. Today, the seller sent an apologetic note saying they couldn't find the book, suspecting that it had been in a box that was damaged by a plumbing leak. Oh well, I guess I'll request a copy through interlibrary loan.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 6, 2017 22:16:52 GMT -5
My library system is ordering it for me; it should be here in a few weeks. They are ordering it from Colorado state university. Thanks for bring it up! What was the flesh quality like this year on the citron x watermelon hybrids? I'm looking forward to trying out the seeds you shared! haha. funny. I am also requesting to check it out through inter-library loan as well. Everyone who decides to read it should come back here to compare notes. lol. Glad to share some seeds. Figure the more people attempting to work on this project the higher chances of us having success and finding / breeding something worthwhile. Would love for anyone to send seeds back at any point or generation during this project. I'm assuming they were pure citrons when i planted them (red seeds), flesh was white and hard and bland. But the seeds harvested were NOT red, so i figure they are all various F1 hybrids. No telling what flesh colors will show up down the road, though looking through the watermelon gene list it sounds like White Flesh is dominant over yellow and red. Might have to wait until the F2 generation and beyond for anything worth while. Though i just found out that Citron Melons have high amounts of pectin which can be used for making homemade Jams and Jellies, so these hybrid watermelons might not be entirely useless even if the F1 generation also has white bland flesh. EDIT:cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cgc/cgcgenes/wmgenes/gene12wmelon.htmlIf i had to make an educated guess i'd say F1 generation will have White Flesh and probably bland taste (Wfwf), F2 generation will segregate to Wfwf WfWf wfwf where 2/3 - 3/4 will be white fleshed and 1/3 - 1/4 possibly yellow or red. Some interesting reading on the 5000 year domestication of watermelon said that originally many were described as yellow fleshed but over time red fleshed was linked to the sweetness gene. Apparently modern yellow fleshed have over come this gene linkage, but it's a fair guess to say that the Citrons with white flesh might be linked genetically to no sweetness. Therefore any colored flesh in the F2 and beyond has a fair chance of recovering sweetness. At least this is my assumption and educated guess at this point with no further knowledge to lean on. Wonder if i inadvertently selected against a few citron hybrids early on in my landrace... I remember having a few bland tasting white fleshed ones that i threw out and did not save seeds from. hmm.... |
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 12, 2017 19:12:14 GMT -5
Though i just found out that Citron Melons have high amounts of pectin which can be used for making homemade Jams and Jellies, so these hybrid watermelons might not be entirely useless even if the F1 generation also has white bland flesh. EDIT:cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cgc/cgcgenes/wmgenes/gene12wmelon.htmlIf i had to make an educated guess i'd say F1 generation will have White Flesh and probably bland taste (Wfwf), F2 generation will segregate to Wfwf WfWf wfwf where 2/3 - 3/4 will be white fleshed and 1/3 - 1/4 possibly yellow or red. Some interesting reading on the 5000 year domestication of watermelon said that originally many were described as yellow fleshed but over time red fleshed was linked to the sweetness gene. Apparently modern yellow fleshed have over come this gene linkage, but it's a fair guess to say that the Citrons with white flesh might be linked genetically to no sweetness. Therefore any colored flesh in the F2 and beyond has a fair chance of recovering sweetness. At least this is my assumption and educated guess at this point with no further knowledge to lean on. Wonder if i inadvertently selected against a few citron hybrids early on in my landrace... I remember having a few bland tasting white fleshed ones that i threw out and did not save seeds from. hmm.... Or you could always candy them i.e. what Citron melons were originally grown for (as a ersatz subsitute for true citron i.e. Citrus medica fruit.) The only problem I have with this is that there are a few white fleshed WATERMELONS out there, like White Wonder, Sugar Lump, CS White flesh and Cream Flesh Sukia, and while they are generally not AS sweet as some reds, they are certainly sweet (and I am talking from personally grown watermelons in a bad year where NONE were sweet) I suppose it is possible they also have an overcome, but I'm nut sure that white flesh=no sweet is an automatic valid. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 12, 2017 21:02:23 GMT -5
Or you could always candy them i.e. what Citron melons were originally grown for (as a ersatz subsitute for true citron i.e. Citrus medica fruit.) The only problem I have with this is that there are a few white fleshed WATERMELONS out there, like White Wonder, Sugar Lump, CS White flesh and Cream Flesh Sukia, and while they are generally not AS sweet as some reds, they are certainly sweet (and I am talking from personally grown watermelons in a bad year where NONE were sweet) I suppose it is possible they also have an overcome, but I'm nut sure that white flesh=no sweet is an automatic valid. Yeah, i non-verbally would include that with the jams and jellies uses, though i didn't specifically make mention of it. A pie filling might be quite a good use. Fruit cake on the other hand just seems like one of those abominations that even the devil himself would want to go away and never spoken of. I am aware of the sweet white fleshed watermelons. I was only making an educated guess. a supposition that this particular white fleshed instance MIGHT be tightly linked to another gene which could code for sweetness. Not necessarily true, and could be completely wrong if sweetness is one gene found on a completely different locus or allele. Basing my guess on the supposed history of watermelon, namely red fleshed linked to sweetness in ancestral watermelons, and yellow fleshed being linked to as non-sweet in ancestral watermelons. But again it could be a terrible guess and completely wrong. Sweetness might even be linked to multiple genes and not a simple one gene Mendelian trait. Guess i need to start doing some research on this as i am completely ignorant in this area. EDIT: The best i could find was this (which is not much): What i want to read is this paper: |
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Post by blueadzuki on Nov 12, 2017 22:42:20 GMT -5
Fruit cake on the other hand just seems like one of those abominations that even the devil himself would want to go away and never spoken of. Depends on the nationality of the fruitcake. Milanese Pannetone is technically a fruitcake, and it is great! (though technically it's more like a bread in consistency than a cake) And I understand Jamaican fruitcake is wonderful too. A lot of people also swear there is a trick to fruitcake. The cake you get this year is for NEXT Christmas. Each day you pour a glass of brandy into the hole in the middle of the cake. By the time next Christmas rolls around it's so soaked through with booze you don't CARE what else is there! But on the whole I agree with the song link |
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