andyb
gardener
Posts: 179
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Post by andyb on Nov 14, 2017 18:49:03 GMT -5
I just picked up my copy of "Wide Hybridization of Plants", on interlibrary loan from the University of Idaho. Fun stuff!
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Post by walt on Nov 15, 2017 13:19:29 GMT -5
Kansas State University is sending their copy to my local library where I can get it for a couple of weeks. It's been 30 years since I read it. I would have made more money in those years if I hadn't read it.
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Post by gilbert on Nov 15, 2017 15:13:47 GMT -5
Mine is on the way!
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 15, 2017 17:09:34 GMT -5
Just got my copy from the library today as well. It sure is Interesting stuff! I tried to scan some of the relevant chapters that people here might be interested in. It is brief. And low resolution. And some of the pages are crooked. But hey, it's the only partial digital copy of this book that i know of, so here you go, enjoy! keen101.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/wide_hybridization_in_plants_tsitsin1.pdf |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 15, 2017 17:48:09 GMT -5
From the information from the book on Watemelon x Citron breeding, i find the most interesting the fact that "winter watermelons" or Storage watermelons may and probably will continue to develop sugar content over time after harvest, whereas in modern domestic watermelons they do not. That could be either really cool or not so cool. Makes me think that with the citron hybrid taste testing one should not necessarily judge them based on sugar content or taste immediately after harvest. If they have storage qualities their best flavor and sugars would be yet to come.
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Post by gilbert on Nov 20, 2017 16:41:44 GMT -5
So, I got the book. I have two questions.
They talk about trying squash x melon crosses. Is this even a possibility?
Is the fodder melon they talk about crossing with watermelon a citron? The Latin name does not seem to match; are they using an outdated latin name?
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Nov 20, 2017 22:30:37 GMT -5
So, I got the book. I have two questions. They talk about trying squash x melon crosses. Is this even a possibility? Is the fodder melon they talk about crossing with watermelon a citron? The Latin name does not seem to match; are they using an outdated latin name? Someone smarter than me can answer in better detail than i, but i'll give it a shot. Yeah, pretty sure the fodder melon is the same as the citron. I've also heard it referred to as cow melon, etc. Yeah, they are using old latin names in the book. Many latin names have been updated/changed recently. Most notably the tomato names. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citron_melonPretty sure a squash x melon cross is TOO wide, but who knows for sure. One thing i found interesting, is that they mentioned something about a hexaploid to diploid cross actually INCREASING genetic compatibility for some sort of cross which is counterintuitive as most gentic ploidy mismatch cause problems and staying toward diploid-diploid or tetraploid-tertraploid crosses are generally a better idea for genetic compatibility. But in the case they mentioned creating an even higher mismatch also increased compatibility which surprised me. I don't remember exactly what page or section that was in, i'd have to go looking for it again specifically. Also it is slightly annoying to find out that the modern watermelon latin name is actually wrong. Apparently "Citrullus lanatus" actually means hairy bitter melon or something like that. I think Citrullus vulgaris was supposed to be the correct name, but they got accidentally switched at some point. |
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Post by walt on Nov 21, 2017 14:04:33 GMT -5
I got a copy from Kansas State University, via interlibrary loan through my local library yesterday.
It was written in Russian and translated in Isreal, perhaps by someone who knows Russian and English but not really understanding the finer details of what they were translating.
Or perhaps it was correctly translated but the genetics and taxonomy of the 1960's, when it was translated, are obsolete.
But it still is worth reading.
I noticed incorrect genus and species names mostly in the grasses. They used Elymus instead of Leymus. The whole world did then. Leymus looks much like Elymus, but in the 1970s it was discovered that some "Elymus" had completely different genomes from other Elymus. So Leymus was split off from Elymus. Leymus is much easier to cross with wheat than is Elymus.
Agropyron has been spit into several genera due to genome studies back in the 1980s. What the book calls Agropyron is what is now called Thinopyrum. What the book calls Agropyron, now called Thinopyrum, glauca, pubescence, and other names, are now all lumped into T. intermedium. T. elongatum and T. pontica were both called A. elongatum by wheat breeders back then, worldwide. I don't know how those got lumped, as T. elongatum is a knee-high, diploid, beach grass, T. ponticum is a head-high, decaploid, steppe grass.
The book has genus Prunus broken down into several genera. In those days, apricots were the proud owners of their own genus. But the book does give the common names of the fruit they are referring to, so no confusion there.
The books mention many domestic wheat species. Domestic wheat is now lumped into 4 species, with rest of the species barely deserving variety names.
And I am only about 35 pages into re-reading the book, and have found these problems already. I use the word problems, not errors, as it is written in the terms of their time. It is still a useful and interesting book, to me and several people here. The sheet of paper taped to the book says it is from the KSU library annex. The annex is an off-campus warehouse for books that are seldom if ever read.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 4, 2017 12:35:45 GMT -5
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Post by walt on Dec 4, 2017 13:44:16 GMT -5
Hexaploid wheat, T. aestivum, var. 'Chinese Spring', has kr-1 and kr-2 genes which make it easier to cross with other species than most wheats. Dipoid T. monococcum wheat is extremely hard to cross with anything. So to transfer genes, mostly disease resistance, from monoccum to modern wheats, that hexaploid x diploid is the first cross to make The F1 hybrid can be doubled giving fertile hybrids, or just pollinated with hexaploid wheat pollen and gets seeds from unreduced gametes. From there on crossing it is relatively easy. Jerusalum artichokem, a hexaploioid, doesn't cross well with diploid sunflowers. Dr. Sieler said he averaged one seed per head with this cross. That is one seed more than I usually got. But Dr. Van Tassel, at the Land institute, found the F1 to be moderately fertile. A bunch of them, open pollinated, gave enough seed to breed from, and the F2 was even more fertile. Those are the only two cases I'm aware of where a hexaploid x diploid which is hard to do gives hybrids that without doubling, give fertile hybrids. Then there are cases where a hexaploid has 6 copies of the same genome. For example crested wheatgrass, Agropyrum cristatum, is AA. Desert wheatgrass, A. desertorum , is AAAA. And Mongolian wheatgrass, A. mongolicum, is AAAAAA. There the hexaploid x diploid is a little hard, but the only barrier is the ploidy difference. The F1 hybrid is AAAA with pretty good fertility. Some passiflora species are much like the example with the crested wheatgrasses. But in most genera, hexaploid x diploid will have all kinds of sterility problems. Sometimes doubling chromosomes solves the problem. Sometimes it doesn't. |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Dec 20, 2017 1:10:28 GMT -5
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Dec 20, 2017 3:15:15 GMT -5
Thanks Day. Some of those watermelons with red seeds (some from Native Seeds SEARCH and some from other sources) were originally included in the watermelon grex / proto-landrace that i started in collaboration with Joseph Lofthouse. Sadly the red-seed gene has yet to re-emerge and remain stable. I suspect that the black seed coat is dominant over red, but i am still liking the nice black seed coats that the population is starting to naturally select towards. I keep periodically introducing red-seeded watermelons back into the landrace though. And in combination with this project i imagine perhaps some day i will be able to select for that trait again. Though, if not it is not the end of the world. I will be happy with nice shiny black seeds any day. I like the black seeds over the pure white seeds of some watermelon varieties like Orangelo or brown mottled seeds like i think Sugar Baby has. But we will see what happens. The good tasting canary yellows in the population are tending to be small black seeds, with a few of the really good tasting reds starting to follow that trend. |
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Post by reed on Dec 20, 2017 4:14:43 GMT -5
Best tasting melons in my patch, both red and yellow, all have small black seeds. Some have a few more of em than really necessary but worth putting up with for the great flavor.
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Dec 20, 2017 20:07:58 GMT -5
Thanks Day . Some of those watermelons with red seeds (some from Native Seeds SEARCH and some from other sources) were originally included in the watermelon grex / proto-landrace that i started in collaboration with Joseph Lofthouse. Sadly the red-seed gene has yet to re-emerge and remain stable. I suspect that the black seed coat is dominant over red, but i am still liking the nice black seed coats that the population is starting to naturally select towards. Oh wow, that's awesome! I love how everyone here has a ton of pseudo secret past projects in their back pocket, like, even if you bring up stinging nettles I'm sure someone on this board will be like "well, actually, I wrote my dissertation on them" or something. It's so cool to be constantly discovering all the cool stuff everyone has worked on in the past, along with all the stuff they're working on now. In terms of watermelon seeds, all I know I learned from cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cgc/cgcgenes/wmgenes/gene12wmelon.html and even then I'll admit -- -- is still proving a bit difficult for me to parse. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Jan 13, 2018 18:19:49 GMT -5
There is a guy over on the tomato forum that is talking about a VERY interesting watermelon variety that i believe to have Citron ancestry!
This is some of what he had to say so far. I told him i thought it did, but he was not so sure. I haven't heard is latest reply yet, but it has citron ancestry i'm 98% positive it does!
I told him about the distinctive rind pattern that i have not seen in any other watermelon other than the citron melons i have grown. It is very distinctive once you get to know it. And the fact that it can store 3-5 months says that it has citron ancestry! And that it was also bred at a later time at the very same Bykov Melon Production Experiment station where these citron-watermelon hybrids were bred in the USSR i find it VERY hard to believe they would have given uo on that research and those breeding lines.
So now i want to find seed for this "Kholodok" watermelon variety!!
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