Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Dec 21, 2017 16:08:33 GMT -5
oxbowfarm - Wow, I must admit... I never thought I'd learn so much about the prostate while reading a paper on pumpkins! Extremely useful and applicable research article regardless; gave me a lot to think about. walt - out of curiosity, what are your growing conditions? If we share similar climates I'd prefer to learn from your experience rather than attempt them myself and fail as well xD
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Dec 21, 2017 22:53:17 GMT -5
reed - yeup, acorn is a pepo. I think troppo might be interested, tagging. Hell I might even be interested. Orange fleshed pepo sounds pretty neat!
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Post by reed on Dec 22, 2017 6:53:15 GMT -5
reed - yeup, acorn is a pepo. I think troppo might be interested, tagging. Hell I might even be interested. Orange fleshed pepo sounds pretty neat! If the next ones we open are the same, tons of seeds, orange flesh but not much of it, I'll post a picture. |
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Post by walt on Dec 22, 2017 14:36:22 GMT -5
oxbowfarm - Wow, I must admit... I never thought I'd learn so much about the prostate while reading a paper on pumpkins! Extremely useful and applicable research article regardless; gave me a lot to think about. walt - out of curiosity, what are your growing conditions? If we share similar climates I'd prefer to learn from your experience rather than attempt them myself and fail as well xD I'm in central Kansas. Northen zone 6. Spring comes whenever it feels like. Sometimes I can get away with planting frost sensitive plants like tomatoes and peppers a moth before supposed frost free date. Sometimes the opposite. But usually googling the forecast 10 days before listed frost free date works. July and August, early September will get into the 100s F, with strong winds. Think of a blast furness. Cools off nights, mostly. Few trees to break the wind in my area. Native Seeds Search varieties generally do well here. The desert-adapted crops seem to think it is cool and dry. It isn't, but I don't argue with them. The C. argyrosperma seed squash didn't grow badly. They just didn't set squash. Maybe a bad year for pollinaters. I know beekeepers in the area have given up. |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Dec 31, 2017 12:24:22 GMT -5
Welp, not even out of the gate on this project and I've had my first set back -- the Pepitas seeds I grew late last year, while they turned into nice plants at the start, were killed during my 5 week partially unplanned absence these past two months. The person I lined up to water the place while I was gone had to pull out last minute, leaving everything full death.
One fruit did form on one plant -- about the size of a softball, but all 'foam flesh' and no formed seeds. *curses in ancient cucurbitaceae*
The plan hope had been to grow out Pepitas F1 in 2017, then plant the F2 to get an idea of the level of segregation I'd be dealing with. Nominal, and I'd do the cross with Howden. Vast, and I'd select the best F2 plant and self it, then crossing to Howden next *season and backcrossing to that specific Pepitas. (note: a season for me is usually 1/3 to 1/2 of my 270+ growing year)
This has made me consider whether or not to invest in an OP hulless variety such as Lady Godiva or Kakai for the project. I think I want to go ahead and do a Pepitas F1 cross with Howden and deal with the fallout of an extra level of segregation in the initial cross (and any backcrossing) later. I can't imagine pepitas is an F1 of anything more than two vaguely dissimilar Styrian hulless varieties, and since the naked seed element relies heavily on recessives, neither can I imagine I'll have dramatic segregation... at least in term of hulless seed quality, with is the only trait I'm after from this side of the cross.
Still... I haven't closed the door on switching to LG or Kakai instead. Opinions appreciated! A waste of money to buy another seed packet? Or a worthwhile expenditure to avoid even more slush pile segregation in the F2?
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Post by oxbowfarm on Dec 31, 2017 13:26:23 GMT -5
If this were my project, I wouldn't bother looking at Pepitas F2s. Whatever they segregate for, it is certainly not going to be naked seed traits. The only way to have a naked hybrid is to use to parent lines that are both homozygous for hulless traits. From the bit of the recent papers we've been posting that I've skimmed through, the hybrids are mainly for vigor and yield. So you may get more segregation for other agronomic traits- plant architecture, determinate/indeterminate etc, but the segregation for naked seeds would be the same as if you used an OP.
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Dec 31, 2017 20:03:20 GMT -5
If this were my project, I wouldn't bother looking at Pepitas F2s. Whatever they segregate for, it is certainly not going to be naked seed traits. The only way to have a naked hybrid is to use to parent lines that are both homozygous for hulless traits. From the bit of the recent papers we've been posting that I've skimmed through, the hybrids are mainly for vigor and yield. So you may get more segregation for other agronomic traits- plant architecture, determinate/indeterminate etc, but the segregation for naked seeds would be the same as if you used an OP. Thanks oxbowfarm -- I agree with everything you're saying. I think a part of me just wanted another set of eyes to look it over, in case I missed something. And your eyes have proven very adept, considering all I've learned from you in such a short span of time; that's all the reassurance I need! xD |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 1, 2018 0:22:27 GMT -5
Alrightly, found THIS THREAD here started back in 2010 that has a lot of good links and insight in it. I'm going to post some random but useful quotes from it here, both for my own purposes and for anyone breeding with hulless varieties in the future. These all mostly in order of the 11 page post, but taken out of context of the conversation. A few I'm posting just to remind myself of something, and may not make much sense on their own. Raymundo, 3 genes. 1 - major gene that reduces the seed coat to a skiffin 1 - dominant gene that reduces the seed coat from a skiffin to a husk 1 - recessive gene that reduces the seed coat to a film but only if combined with the other 2 genes. docs.agrisafe.eu/training5/Ruckenbauer.pdfDarJones * I also found this from Loy, J.B. 1990. Hull-less seeded pumpkins: a new edible snackseed crop. p. 403-407. In: J. Janick and J.E. Simon (eds.), Advances in new crops. Timber Press, Portland, OR.* Hope you have a lot of patience Holly. It will take 9 generations and 2 backcrosses to stabilize a good flavored naked seed storage squash. DarJones * So, This year I planted everything I had left of the Long Island Little Greenseed. I isolated them from everything else. I planted them on the South and West side of a patch of corn and the only thing else near them was melons. So, I was surprised when these ornamental edible "like" things popped up in the field. I was worried as well. However, I did not roque them out. So, the first one I opened had green seeds. I cooked it last night. It wasn't half bad. By looking at this picture of everything that came out of the field, this looks like Ken's Mass Cross of Green Seed Pumpkins. I say that because some of these look like Kakai (which I've grown before). I plan to open several more and see what we have. I did open one of the larger green striped guys and it was loaded (and the green seeds were greener). There are only a couple in the field that look like the Baby Boo that Little Greenseed is supposed to look like.  * Well all my seeds are harvested but I have decided not to grow Gleisdorfer Naked Seeded any more because the food to space ratio is terrible. The large fruit contain no more seeds than the smaller ones but are just all hollow. The seeds are largish and delicious but for the small amount you get in each fruit it is just not worth it. Only a cupful which is, of course, less when they are dried. My plants ended up producing around 4 fruits each but the plants are large.  * * Another hint at dual purpose comes from Will Bonsall in the MOGFA periodical (Maine Organic Gardeners & Farmers Association). The whole article is here: OilseedPumpkinsThe pertinent paragraph follows: "Among my pepita trials from Eastern Europe and Turkey, I found a couple of accessions that seemed to have a trait I was not expecting: tasty flesh! I was “gutting” for seed and noticed a couple of fruits had denser yellow flesh than the others, so I tried steaming and eating some. Knowing what a pepo-bigot I am, you will perhaps take me seriously when I say that some were more than edible – I mean downright palatable, to the point of freezing 10 pounds of mashed flesh, which the family enjoyed during the winter." ~Will Bonsall There is hope! |
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Post by troppo on Jan 1, 2018 21:50:42 GMT -5
reed - yeup, acorn is a pepo. I think troppo might be interested, tagging. Hell I might even be interested. Orange fleshed pepo sounds pretty neat! If the next ones we open are the same, tons of seeds, orange flesh but not much of it, I'll post a picture. Unfortunately given I'm in OZ i may not be able to get them through our customs... |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 20, 2018 13:49:08 GMT -5
More random but potentially useful future info: I found a gene in the Curcurbit Genes Cooperative List for the recessive gene, fv - fused vein. Digging deeper lead me to this 1996 article " Morphology and Anatomy of the Fused Vein Trait in Cucurbita pepo."  -- How exactly this gene could be useful, if at all, for intentional crossing (since it is recessive) is up for debate. I can only confirm this trait present in the Pepitas F1 variety I grew last year. At the time, I was ignorant of the fv gene. I assumed the 'crinkling' was due to water stress or disease. At least now I know otherwise! |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Jan 20, 2018 13:58:35 GMT -5
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Feb 1, 2018 22:30:12 GMT -5
... and so it begins.  For Science!  |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Feb 1, 2018 23:29:50 GMT -5
farmermike - tagging you here because I saw you posted briefly about your naked-seed squash project HERE and I'd love to hear more details about it, if you're inclined to share 
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Post by farmermike on Feb 4, 2018 0:23:42 GMT -5
Wow, Day , getting off to an early start! Do you think you'll be able to get 2 generations in one season? As for my project, I planted and field of Lady Godiva, Kakai, and Styrian all together in 2016. But I also interplanted them with Candystick Dessert Delicata. At the time, I guess I had designs on breeding an edible-flesh, naked-seed squash.  Since then, I've realized how much I love eating the hulless seeds, and I kind of wished I had planted the naked-seed by themselves for a year -- at least to build up my stock of them. Then I could've done the cross later on. Now ALL my seed is full of crosses. Oh well, I planted another smaller patch of the next generation hulless seeds in 2017, and some of those crosses showed up. Interestingly, the F1s had precocious yellow skin (fruits were yellow before their flowers opened; and stayed yellow at maturity), even though their parents were both striped! (Somehow, I forgot to take a photo of this.) So, now I have to grow out those F2 seeds at some point. I also just received some older seed from the Ned Kelly project, which I may prioritize growing out while the seed is still viable. I've also been thinking of just mass selecting for increased size within a population uncrossed naked-seed pumpkins. In 2016 I got a few that were just big enough to carve for halloween, so I assume I could keep selecting in that direction. But, that may mean buying some new uncrossed seeds, so I don't have to rogue out all the hulled genes. Haven't decided yet. My 2017 patch also just grew very poorly, and a lot of the plants died before the fruit fully ripened. So, I didn't end up with a lot of high quality seeds. I suspect soil fertility issues, and wonder if all the rain and flooding we had leached a lot of nutrients out of the soil or something...not sure. They also had a terrible spider mite infestation! Truth be told, your project seems the most interesting to me right now. I'm excited to see how it unfolds. And if you ever need help growing out some of the progeny, I bet I could find some space for that. |
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Day
gardener
When in doubt, grow it out.
Posts: 171
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Post by Day on Feb 4, 2018 14:30:03 GMT -5
Wow, Day , getting off to an early start! Do you think you'll be able to get 2 generations in one season? We're going to give it a shot! When I saw that winter was basically canceled for this year, I decided to go ahead and plant my squash. Technically our first/last frost dates are Dec 31st to Feb 15th, but my neighbor has lived here ten years and never even seen a frost. Our coldest daytime temp so far this winter was a single day in the 50s, and it's been 80s all week, so screw it, get while the gettin's good right? The plants are loving the heat (80s) but growing a bit slower due to lack of light. My yard is partially shaded too, though luckily the confused ash tree has half dropped its leaves, so at least there's dappled light in the shade side instead of complete afternoon blackout. It's funny, I was originally thinking about making that cross instead this year XD I later that others were already far ahead of me on improving taste in nakeds, so I did a 180 instead and decided to try to make a big, fun, tasteless but carveable jack-o-lantern, where you can roast up the seeds right after carving. You know what they say: If you can't be first or best, be original, right?  I started this project with a handful of Pepitas seeds gifted to me by a fellow blogger, but since those are now used up and growing I realized I had nothing to backcross it to. I picked up a packet of Lady Godiva and Kakai to hopefully trial both this season as well if I have space (I won't) and see which one will be better for the backcross. That said, I hardly need an entire packet of each, so by all means if you need fresh stock let me know and I'll send some your way. Be careful what you offer! Growing out the F2 is going to be... an endeavor. I may call in every favor I have. At the earliest that would be next year though, as even with our lovely weather, three generations a year very likely more than my little yard can handle. I simply don't have space for that and my other zillion projects. |
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