Row 7

[oxbowfarm]

Just FYI.

So there is this new outlet for some interesting breeding work coming out of cornell they are call ing Row 7 seeds. Surprisingly it isn't all protected by PVPs, MTAs, or utility patents. They even specifically state on the website that they won't be utility patenting the stuff, so I though that was interesting since the stuff I've gotten from Michael Mazourek's program has required signing Cornell MTAs in the past.

The thing that I find really intriguing is this 7082 cucumber. "Named for its trial plot, the 7082 cucumber is a stubbled green slicer of modest stature but memorable flavor—which, when it comes to cucumbers, is no small feat.

Breeder Michael Mazourek recalls stories of long-forgotten cucumbers that filled a room with their fragrance. Today, he is working to rediscover them, marrying heirloom flavors with modern disease resistance in the field.

For Mazourek, the search for a truly delicious cucumber begins with exploring the bitter compounds that have been selected against for decades. It turns out a little bitterness goes a long way in adding complexity and depth of flavor—a kind of vegetable diplomacy. And it goes a long way in the field, too, helping to deter pests for organic growers."

This description is compelling enough for me to trial them, coupled with having met Michael and found him to be a really willing to give advice on cucurbit breeding.

[billw]

It is encouraging to see more universities coming back around to public plant breeding, but I wish it felt like more than window dressing.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I talked with Michael Mazourek for a couple hours at the Organic Seed Growers Conference last month. Delightful.

[billw]

Fragrant cucumbers certainly sound delightful. Store bought cucs don't smell or taste like much of anything to me.

[philagardener]

Quite the copy editor they have! That's a pretty smooth site . . .

Some of those varieties are F1s (including that cuc), so MTAs may not be needed.

[oxbowfarm]

Mar 8, 2018 20:18:42 GMT -5 philagardener said:

Quite the copy editor they have! That's a pretty smooth site . . .

Some of those varieties are F1s (including that cuc), so MTAs may not be needed.

You're not afraid of an F1 are you? The only time I avoid using an F1 as parent material is if I'm pretty sure it has male sterility which isn't an issue in cucurbits, especially cukes.

[richardw]

Its amazing how many times you hear people say,"you cant save seed from F1's", the powers that be have done a great job in brainwashing

[philagardener]

Mar 9, 2018 10:28:11 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

Mar 8, 2018 20:18:42 GMT -5 philagardener said:

Quite the copy editor they have! That's a pretty smooth site . . .

Some of those varieties are F1s (including that cuc), so MTAs may not be needed.

You're not afraid of an F1 are you? The only time I avoid using an F1 as parent material is if I'm pretty sure it has male sterility which isn't an issue in cucurbits, especially cukes.

From the standpoint of diversity, that's a great place for us to start selecting things.

(As you know,) it is just that they aren't concerned of losing their market niche since only they know the parental lines to keep generating the F1s for sale.

[reed]

I'm fine with them keeping the parent lines secret, that way they can make money selling it over and over again and thus keep their work supported.

It's important cause they won't make much off someone like me, only buying an F1 once.

[steev]

Not being very fond of "sweet", I resent the "baby-foodification" of modern food; I once went to a presentation on almonds which featured samples of several raw varieties, the point being to taste the difference in their bitterness; I was most pleased by the most bitter (really not very), which was the opposite opinion from what we were supposed to get; my point was that since they were un-toasted, it was the only one with any flavor at all.

[billw]

I'm with you, Steev. I like some bitterness, particularly in greens. When vegetables are too sweet, it is hard for me to eat much of them. I can hardly handle a few mouthfuls of modern sweet corn, for example - it is just too much.

[oxbowfarm]

Well, I can tell you that most of my customers do like sweet vegetables. They like modern sweet corn, and they like very (naturally) sweet squashes. They also like convenient, which is why the grocery stores have gone so deep into pre-cut, pre-peeled, pre-prepped, nitro-packed everything, even though it is a proven food safety nightmare. Mainstream modern conventional average joe and jane Americans don't cook from scratch all that much, and they have palates trained to like sweet foods. I'm not going to convince most of them to buy a 10 -20 pound butternut, and if I tell them to change their lifestyle to work with the squash, or tell them that they have an unsophisticated palate, they'll just stop buying my stuff.

Realistically, modern vegetable breeders are breeding for modern tastes. I love Joseph's Landrace Moschata and it is a main component of my own landrace butternut, but most of the squash I got out of Joseph's original seed was WAY to large to attract my customers. There is a reason that Michael Mazourek developed Honeynut and is still breeding similar mini butternuts like 898. It is great to garden for your own tastes, but I've got to grow what will actually sell, to a certain extent. I do grow lots of stuff that is unusual and I can talk my customers into trying things, but only up to a point.

[billw]

I'm not suggesting that people should like the same traits that I do. I've learned a lot about how I am out of sync with he majority just by what sells. For example, I tend to favor yellows and oranges, but if I offer a variety that is also available in red, the red varieties will outsell the yellows and oranges by 5 to 1 or more. And I will probably never convince people that smaller potatoes are better, no matter how hard I try.

[reed]

I'm glad I don't grow to sell, don't matter much to me what other people like. Company sometimes does ask what kind of tomato or corn or melon it is they'er eating or where I got them. They can't seem to grasp that little purple potatoes that don't even need butter don't come from a store.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I am caving in to the peer-pressure advocating for smaller squash. Next year I expect to grow a lot of small butternuts for market. Even though I think that pragmatically, they are a bad culinary and agricultural choice. I live in a dumb society, and dumb people need to eat too.

Nevertheless, for my own use, and that of my chefs, restaurants, family, and tribe, I grow decent sized squash targeting 10 to 15 pounds.

Small Orange Butternut archetype.