watermelon dominant genes

[shmack1]

OK after seeing, Andrew's colour chart, what I was calling salmon yellow is more like an orange or inbetween an orange and canary yellow. But I do have a degree of red green colour blindness! Ha ha. What I have found is most pale pinks are very bland and usually have large seeds. Also I got a light orange that had white seeds that was really tasty

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

I knew i probably was missing something and oversimplifying. So i decided to email the guy who published that page directly and ask. This was his response:

There are several colors described that have not been studied for inheritance yet, including dark red, rose and pink.

Canary yellow is controlled by the C locus and is not part of the Y locus. It is epistatic to the Y locus.

White is not part of the Y locus. White is controlled by 1 or 2 other genes, and is epistatic to other colors. There is a team in China that is publishing the inheritance of white.
Dr. Todd C. Wehner
Professor and Project Leader
Cucurbit and Stevia Breeding
Dept. Hort. Sci.
NC State University

I sent off another email asking if the photos i have listed are accrate for the names they are place holding for. waiting for a response.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

So i edited that page and photo to remove white from the list. My current understanding is this:
That Canary Yellow is dominant to all colors unless the inhibit gene is present. If the inhibit gene is present the flesh color defaults to red or pink or whatever color is dominant next. And even though not all the red and pinks have been studied, it sort of looks like the general trend is the one with the most color is dominant to one that has less. With the last one being Salmon yellow.

It also sounds like White might actually be dominant over Canary yellow and all color as well, so if you have white fleshed in your population that may complicate things quite a bit. I only have white fleshed in my population from Citron melons. In one study the inheritance numbers were this in the F2 generation: 12 white, 3 yellow and 1 red. Which interestingly enough reminds me of the 9:3:3:1 ratio that i looked at with the red podded peas...(https://keen101.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/screenshot-3-1.png?w=700). And yes, would indicate that two genes are at play with white fleshed watermelon.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

oh, p.s. i forgot to add the reply i got:

The type lines for watermelon gene mutants are:

Dixielee and RedNSweet for scarlet red
Angeleno Black Seeded for coral red (originally just red)
Tendersweet Orange Flesh for orange
Golden Honey for salmon yellow (originally just yellow)

Sugar Baby is dark red.
Rose and pink have been described in Europe, but no type lines given.

Flesh color changes with environment. Orange fades in the sunlight. It can be difficult to rate color for single plants in a segregating population.

So the basic answer is i have no idea if the photos i am using are actually correct for those colors or not. If anyone has these varieties please take pictures.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Mar 12, 2018 14:16:47 GMT -5 reed said:

I don't think I took any watermelon pictures last year but here is are a couple favorites from year before

reed definitely save that bright pink fuchsia one! I really like the color. I may want to get seed for it sometime in the future.

[reed]

I got lots of seeds but there's a problem in sharing the pink ones specifically. I never thought to keep colors separated. Flavor and production is what gets seeds into the preferred jar so there are lots of pink ones in there but also yellow and red. On color I like the ones where pink and yellow kind of swirl together.

I'll post pictures of any cool colored ones this year and save separate in case anyone is interested.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Mar 11, 2018 13:05:36 GMT -5 ferdzy said:

will second the statement that watermelon colour genetics are complicated.

One project involves crossing Orangeglo with another orange fleshed watermelon with the hopes of getting a slightly smaller but more northern adapted version of Orangeglo. At first I thought I was getting contamination from my other project but last summer I had to conclude that no; every year my orange x orange cross will throw out at least one red meloned plant. They are often early and very good melons too which is a bit frustrating since they are exactly what I am looking for! Only RED.

hmm. interesting. based on the info that should not be happening without contamination. I wonder if something else is going on. Do you know what "type of red" they are? Do you think they could be the "dark red" that has not been studied? Keep in mind the photos i am using may not be accurate for "Coral red" or "Scarlet Red". It is also possible there are actually two types of orange and only one has been studied.

One possible explanation is that orange is the result of a defective gene that codes for lycopene. If so, then the occasional back-mutation that restores the lycopene biochemical pathway is possible.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

I become more distrustful every year of experts that act like they can explain genetics. Especially when multiple primary genes and innumerable modifiers are acting together in the same plant.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Mar 17, 2018 18:26:15 GMT -5 Joseph Lofthouse said:

I become more distrustful every year of experts that act like they can explain genetics. Especially when multiple primary genes and innumerable modifiers are acting together in the same plant.

lol. yes i'm of a similar view. I distrust "experts" of all kinds. Especially self proclaimed experts. I find many so-called experts often are dead wrong or only partially correct at best. Often caught clinging to old ways of thinking or old paradigms and old dogma. Not always the case, but frequent. I'm not talking about just genetics.

But by using the data we have can be useful. Not necessarily correct in all cases but we can use it as general guidelines and general patterns.

But things can easily get messy. For example today I've been trying to sort out watermelon seed genetics. If you thought watermelon flesh was messy then sorting out watermelon seed genetics is a nightmare.

I've basically figured out that from at least two separate studies, possibly three, that seed coat colors and patterns sort of ascribe to three genes, though possibly and probably more. White seems to be the most recessive, with red the next most recessive. Green over red. [brown-ish w/ black dots goes here somewhere]. Black was found to be the most dominant.



Something described as "tan" dominant over red as well (but not clear if dominant over green. Heck i have no idea what tan actually is without a picture. I find the description "tan" to be so vague and ambiguous. Another one called "clump" from sugar baby. I also find "clump" to be a really poor description. I'd call it sort of mottled with black dots and lines. But i guess each person comes up with their own arbitrary language not easily interpreted by others. This "clump" may have also been described as light tan with peripheral black banded seeds or also described as medium brown, black-dotted seeds. reddish-brown was also mentioned but not studied i guess. This "clump" was recessive to black i guess but not clear whether dominant over "tan". I assume it is at least dominant over red, maybe green as well.

As someone pointed out some people are red/green color blind as well so that further may complicate interpretations.

I took a quick looks at the seeds i am planning on planting this year and they are much more varied that these terrible descriptions. I have white seeds, i have at least 3 different shades of red/pink seeds, i have little gray seeds, i have the brown-ish seeds with black dots and lines, i have grayish seeds with the same dots and lines, i have black seeds, i have smooth seeds, i have weird crinkled seeds, i have dark brown seeds, light brown seeds, and reddish-brown seeds. I pretty much have nearly all described and more.

I also have citron hybrids that have seeds with multiple seed coat colors some underneath others.

So yeah, it's complicated.

on the otherhand watermelon fruit shape apparently is simple. OO for oblong fruit, Oo codominant for halfway oval, and oo for round fruit. So that's nice.

EDIT: I've uploaded an approx. guide to seed colors ^above. I am ignoring green on purpose. I sort of lumped "tan" and brown together. It's possible this is not correct, but it seems logical. The closer to black you get the more dominant. The closer to white the more recessive.

[ferdzy]

keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) , well I suppose it is possible that I am wrong, and there is contamination! But I just felt, on examining last years red melon, that the leaves, and the shape of the fruit, and the seeds, and the pattern of the rind, etc, all made it look like it was a cross between my two starter melons. Only thing "off" was the colour. The other parent melon is Sweet Siberian, for what that is worth. They are both pretty similar tones of orange to my uneducated eye.

And there it is... sorry about the ridiculous size. Those white seeds with little brown spots on the neck are pure Orangeglo. More at Watermelon Projects Update for the Year.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

ferdzy, well i must have been typing just as you were lol.

But as i just mentioned a min ago it really IS complicated. For all i know you could be spot on. Nice photo by the way! I really like those yellow (or orange) swirls you have there! It at least has some yellow or orange genes in it i would imagine. Perhaps there are other modifier or inhibitor genes like Joseph Lofthouse mentions.

p.s. looks more "pink" to me than "red" haha but i guess color is sort of arbitrary too. lol.

[ferdzy]

Yeah. I don't worry about it too much. The proof of the pudding (or watermelon) is in the eating, (and growing), and I'll just keep going as long as I continue to get closer to what I want. And your right about it really being pink! I guess I was using "red" as a code for "not orange"!

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

haha. true that, Ferdzy. The proof is in the pudding. What grows the best and tastes the best is what matters.


I think I'm pretty done with this topic. Published as much as i thought useful on my website/wiki and did a brief blog post about it. Still i think this topic has helped me understand watermelon genetics at least a little better, so i'm glad shmack1 brought it up. Hopefully this thread has helped answer your questions. lol.

Three more traits that might be of interest:

*Fruit that are elongate (OO), oval (Oo), or spherical (oo).

*Yellow-rind fruit are recessive (go). Fruit become golden yellow as they mature.

*Explosive rind is recessive (e) and causes the fruit rind to burst or split when cut. (i find these types also burst and split open more in the field / garden more too. Sometimes when barely touching them to harvest.)

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

Mar 12, 2018 15:26:35 GMT -5 shmack1 said:

OK after seeing, Andrew's colour chart, what I was calling salmon yellow is more like an orange or inbetween an orange and canary yellow. But I do have a degree of red green colour blindness! Ha ha. What I have found is most pale pinks are very bland and usually have large seeds. Also I got a light orange that had white seeds that was really tasty

Well, there is no telling if my interpretation of what "salmon yellow" is correct or not. But basically if it is a pale yellow versus a really bright yellow, then the dull yellow is probably recessive and the bright one dominant over either red/pink.

[shmack1]

Thanks for your input guys, it has helped me understand a few things a bit better!