What are the advantages of landrace vegetables?

[dave]

Although I hope Joseph will weigh in on this question, there are enough very knowledgeable growers here that I’m hoping this will spark an in-depth, even philosophical discussion. As a little background, I usually describe myself to other gardeners as “I’m not a gardener, I’m a food grower”. That usually distances me from the typical backyard gardener (and stops a lot of meaningless conversations). I am working to grow all my own and my wife’s food on my ¼ acre garden. I’m also located in the mid-Willamette valley, home to a great concentration of very good local vegetable breeders. If a variety passes my wife’s taste test and her food preparation and preservation tests, and it will grow reliably and trouble-free for me with no babying and with good non-hybrid yield, what more do I need.
 
So my question is; what am I missing by not trying and growing more landrace vegetables? Can someone sell me on the whole landrace vegetable variety program? If I was planning a major move to some new geographic area I’d probably start with a bunch of landrace varieties, to find replacements for what I was growing before the move. But without a major change in my environment, am I missing something?
Dave

[oxbowfarm]

I think the primary advantage that I can see is with crops that typically do not thrive in your climate. Joseph couldn't successfully mature moschata or argyrosperma squash in his climate in N Utah using commonly available OP varieties. Now he has well adapted landrace populations that are reliable producers for him. So its a great method for recombining genetics to achieve rapid adaptation. If you are in the PNW, the crop species that are marginal in your climate are probably ones that require more heat units than your season provides, so a landrace breeding program might work well for those crops.

I don't know of anyone who says you have to grow only landraces, or that they are always better than OPs or hybrids.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

I will give my take, as it stands now, and i'm sure each person will have a different view. That is not to say each view is wrong, infact they all are probably true simultaneously.

Great questions. Let's try to take them one at a time in a comprehensive manner.

Whether you are a backyard gardener, a farmer, an urban farmer, a grower, a breeder, a tinkerer, a lurker, etc. I don't think really matters. A very basic definition of a landrace is population of plants that may not be a "variety" but are adapted fairly well to a climate and area. Whether that landrace is genetically diverse or not does not necessarily matter, though generally are.

So, what is "wrong" not planting landrace vegetables in favor of named varieties? nothing. if your original statement is indeed true:

If a variety passes my wife’s taste test and her food preparation and preservation tests, and it will grow reliably and trouble-free for me with no babying and with good non-hybrid yield, what more do I need.

If that statement is true then there you go, no necessary need to look further.

Lets look at all the qualities that seem to be important to you:

1. Tastes Good
2. Easily prepared
3. Easily stored
4. Grows well
5. Has good yield (with a bias toward non-hybrid for whatever reason)

Those are all pretty good reasons. Each person might have slightly different needs/goals but generally those are basically the same.

So what is the appeal of modern landrace vegetable crops? Why would one prefer them over named varieties? Is there other factors you are missing?

Generally if a named variety grows well, has minimal pest or disease issues, and tastes good, then there really is no major reason to look to modern genetically diverse landrace breeding techniques. But if one or more of the above qualities is failing then that is why landrace breeding starts to look more attractive.

Lets talk about tomatoes and watermelon. Tomatoes are pretty much an inbreeding species so i will talk about them in that manner and watermelon are an outcrossing species like squash.

In the case of tomatoes i can either find an heirloom tomato that tastes really good put only produces one tomato the whole season and fails to thrive as a plant, or i can find a few minor varieties that have ok production but no remarkable flavor or anything that stands out. I don't know that i've really looked into hybrid tomatoes so i don't know how well they would do for me but i am not philosophically opposed to hybrids. Nor am i afraid to plant seed from hybrids. And while i like the flavor of heirlooms they all seem to be bred to thrive in the far east or far west and generally not for my climate as my area has never been historically "tomato country". Corn does well here, but tomatoes? Meh.

So basically no tomatoes can grow for me. Yes there are "master gardeners" out there who used to live here many years ago who claim my climate is perfect for tomatoes and i can grow any tomato i want. Yes if i were to radically change my soil dynamics i could grow many more tomato varieties, and if i added a hoop house or greenhouse i could grow even more, perhaps ANY tomato known to man. Sure theoretically i could with massive input in either fertilizers or monetary investment in technology. But i don't want to do that.

Now, perhaps if i methodically went around spending lots of money on seed for every tomato variety and keeping good notes on what grows best here i could emulate the techniques of the nurserys, extension offices, and universities. And identify which ones do grow best here. They would still be mostly inbreeding so that wouldn't change and few genetic swapping going on. But i don't have the capitol nor the interest to do that either. I find most of the tomatoes that are not heirlooms to relativity taste the same and look the same. I'm tired of bland ol cardboard red tomatoes. While not all red tomatoes taste like cardboard, i somewhat have an association of bad flavor with red tomatoes now. I know it is a bias and not always true, but it is still there. I did find one tomato variety two years ago called "anasazi" from a sort-of local greenhouse that tastes good and grows well in my climate. Whether it really is a long lost native American heirloom or not does not matter to me. I also found my second variety "LA1996" which does fantastic for me as well! But it has some S. chilense ancestry and is a pre-bred variety never marketed to catalogs or "food growers". Only scientists. So i am getting closer to my goal of having great tomatoes that thrive and taste good. But i am not necessarily aiming for them to be a landrace as they are mostly inbreeding. The advantage of having tomatoes that could be highly outcrossing is that i could get new surprises every season. Also if a new pest or disease came in i would just not save seed from those and save from the rest. Also an outcrossing tomato species would help feed the bees which are struggling with modern herbicides, pesticides, climate change, disease, and other stresses. So helping out those pollinators would be fantastic. Plus i would get higher tomato yields as well. Despite tomatoes being inbreeding they still need something to shake the flower to pollinate. Sometimes wind can do this, but Joseph has shown that tomato varieties that ARE visited by bees have dramatically higher yield and fruit set.

watermelons are outcrossing. I also live in an environment where watermelons do not thrive. I suppose i too could methodically trial every northern watermelon variety and take meticulous notes as to which one grows the best and tastes the best but that takes time. In fact i've already sort of done that to some degree. Sugar baby does ok. Blacktail mountain does horrible. Sweet dakota rose does pretty good, Yellow doll and hollyhill do pretty well. I guess i could have stopped and just planted the ones that do sort of well. But i like the idea of high genetic diversity and having the future ability to withstand biotic and abiotic stresses such as new pests or diseases. Having high genetic diversity affords me a certain safety net of sorts.

Plus in the long run i get an even better adapted variety than i otherwise might. You can't select for adaptable genetics from a variety that no selection can occur from. Like crossing two generic highly inbred red mal-adapted tomatoes. Sure you get a cross, but the result is still a red maladapted highly inbred (genome) tomato. Sorry for jumping back to tomatoes. Who knows if the one who has poor genetics for fruit set does not secretly have disease resistance and good roots. And who knows if the one with good fruit set lack flavor. By letting them all mix up i can select for all the qualities i desire. Not just one and settle. But this is only necessary if good varieties do not exist in the first place.

For me the best advantage is speed. It is faster for me to mix them all up than to evaluate separate. (though i do that for inbreeding peas).

So the take away: If you have good regional or specifically locally adapted varieties then who cares if they are landraces or not. Grow how you want to grow. Eat how you want to eat.

Possible benefits of landrace crops:
1. Speed at finding something adapting to your conditions quickly and with less fuss.
2. If high genetic diversity then resistance to both biotic and abiotic strresses (such as changing climate, changing pests).
3. If you put minimal human selective pressures you will get a more adapted strain or variety in the end.
4. You can tailor your foods to you palate and growing practices and conditions.
5. no stress in having a variety lost if accidentally cross pollinated or if plants suddenly develop a disease.
6. You are working with nature rather than against nature so things are easier and less stress.

That is just my quick list. I'm sure others will see something else. I am not trying to convince you. Do what feels best to you.

[dave]

Thanks for all your thoughtful replys already. I felt like I had some familiarity with some of the advantages of landraces. About 7 or 8 years ago, when I started this self-sufficiency path I thought I would grow some hard winter wheat. I'm pretty sure it isn't typically grown in western Oregon, so I went on a quest to find a landrace wheat. I figured it was the only way to find something that would grow here. But other than that, I still don't see that it has any advantages to me. I place a lot of reliance on being able to count on some yield on a crop when I start it; I don't want surprises. I do often compare a new variety with my current selections, but typically, locally grown at least.

By lurking here for a couple years I have gotten over my fear of contaminating my seed strains. I don't do it on purpose, I do try to prevent it, but I know some of my bean varieties have picked up some hybridization. Maybe I just shouldn't worry about the landrace issue, since I'm pretty satisfied with my current varieties. Just trying to see if I might be missing something.
Dave

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Mar 24, 2018 21:24:47 GMT -5 dave said:

I know some of my bean varieties have picked up some hybridization.

I spent a tiredly joyful evening a month ago sorting through Dave's beans. I brought home a jar of hybrids. I am super excited to plant them. Thanks Dave.

[Joseph Lofthouse]

Passing the wife's taste tests, and her food preparation and preservation tests may be more important than growing landrace style. Growing landrace style might produce phenotype diversity that she doesn't appreciate.

I grow a mix of landraces and cultivars. Each has their place in my garden. For example, Purple Top White Globe turnip grows perfectly content in my garden. I haven't felt a need to turn it into a landrace... It's been growing feral in my fields for more than 8 generations... I think that the seed I started with wasn't genetically diverse enough to have evolved into a landrace. So I still consider it a cultivar.

I maintain some tomatoes as cultivars, and I grow some as landraces.

Some of my corn is cultivars, some of it is landraces.

[richardw]

I'm a bit of a late starter when it comes to developing my own landrace lines, apart from my Benhorn carrot and Spanish Radish which have seen 35 years and 12 years of selection and seed saving, i suppose it shows in how well they have adapted to my area by the fact that Benhorn is now 100% bolt free 15 months after sowing, the past summer saw 4 other carrot varieties added to the Benhorn seed bed, so it will be interesting if i get bolters showing up again because of this. Just because my Benhorn is bolt resistant in my garden may not mean it would be the same in say Joseph's

[jocelyn]

I like surprises, so landraces provide some. I don't mind what colour, size or shape potatoes come in, I just want good flavours and some blight resistance. In a good year, even the hardly resistant ones will crop. In a bad year, only the most resistant do.....but planting some from seedballs gives lots of different colours and the blight resistance seems to transfer around.

For squashes, I like any colour and size, but like higher dry matter the best. Some have hard rinds, that woody layer in the middle of the peel, and the mice tend to leave them on the vine, or I ACTUALLY get to EAT them, grin. If that hardrind gene wants to pollinate itself around, I'm happy about that too.
Weather seems to take some pretty wild swings, hot and dry for several years, then a short wet summer, all over the place. Diversity means at least some seeds make food for the household.

Then, tree nuts and fruits are pretty well drought proof, once they get their roots to the permanant water table. But that really tasty pear takes fire blight, and the resistant one sometimes matures too late.....but seedlings recombine traits and the landrace fruit trees have some just right for here.

[oxbowfarm]

I actually don't have a lot of uses for landrace varieties myself here on my farm. For market, I do need a certain amount of uniformity for ease of packing and marketing the vegetables I sell. So I like to have patches of vegetables that are more or less all the same size and come in more or less at the same maturity. The breeding projects I do tend to be more built around deliberate crosses of known varieties with subsequent selection in the following generations to get whatever it is that I'm looking for.

In terms of landrace breeding, the best place for it would be for marginal crop species that aren't really worth growing here as they are. Things like Runner Beans, which grow great vines and flower profusely but produce minimal amounts of viable seed. Likewise Fava beans, which barely yield the same amount of seed that got planted, if I actually liked fava beans I might explore this. Those would be great candidates for a landrace project here, and I'm actually building a runner bean landrace.

For many other crops I can't see the benefit for my situation. I think the technique is a great one, but it isn't necessary or even beneficial for every crop in every climate.

[jocelyn]

Yah, you just do it if it's useful where you live and for what you like to grow.

[richardw]

Mar 25, 2018 8:31:59 GMT -5 oxbowfarm said:

In terms of landrace breeding, the best place for it would be for marginal crop species that aren't really worth growing here as they are. Things like Runner Beans, which grow great vines and flower profusely but produce minimal amounts of viable seed. Likewise Fava beans, which barely yield the same amount of seed that got planted, if I actually liked fava beans I might explore this. Those would be great candidates for a landrace project here, and I'm actually building a runner bean landrace.



What is the reason why the Fava and Runners dont do well ?

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

I feel like my last reply was too long. Based on everyone's short answers.

I guess it really just comes down to i think people should use them if it is beneficial to them, their values, their goals, and if not that's perfectly fine. I see no reason why both can't be used together. Both techniques have merit and value and are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

In peas i maintain many separate varieties. But they are also an inbreeding crop. I am evaluating a trait or two that may allow for higher outcrossing and thus could theoretically allow for true landrace peas. I am not particularly interested in landrace peas myself, but there are a few who would. I am still investigating it though partly from a curiosity standpoint and for the potential benefit of others. Also i have found that sometimes i find unexpected surprises along the way of investigating something out so i have found sometimes just the journey itself can be valuable.

I don't know if this is really related to your discussion or not, so feel free to ignore it. But i really find it annoying that common usage of terms like "open pollinated" does not actually mean "openly pollinated by bees and freely crossing", but instead means "closed pollinated" and "closed to bees and tightly controlled pollination". We the people have the power to change usage of these words and so i think we should. We could use "closed pollinated" instead of open pollinated or even "highly inbred", though some people find offence to that term for whatever reason. Perhaps not all "open pollinated" varieties are highly inbred, but they are NOT Openly pollinated by bees in a promiscuous manner. Very confusing.

[reed]

Too eliminate genetic depression and allow for site and practices specific adaptation in small populations. Thus enabling reliable food production and self sufficiency in a small garden with simple tools and without commercial inputs.

It's morphed into more than that but that's why I started.

[dave]

Once again, thanks for all the thoughtful replies. The message I take away doesn't surprise me. Since I'm pretty satisfied with what I grow, unless I'm expecting to world to turn upside down I should probably stay with what I have. They have been locally bred, or at least locally grown, and seem quite suited for my environment. The mild selection I'm doing with the crops I grow is just good enough for my goals.

I guess my wife and I both like less phenotype diversity; it's easier to count on. Enjoy the beans, I'm sure I'll randomly produce more as the seasons go on.

Dave

[oxbowfarm]

richardw I'd say it is pretty much due to our climate. My understanding of fava beans preferences is that they like a long cool growing season. So they make great crops in spring summer in the UK and northern Europe and the Pacific Northwest, and they make nice winter crops in the Mediterranean and the Gulf Coast of the US. But here we have winters that are too cold for favas to survive, let alone grow, and our springs become summer very quickly, and conditions are far warmer than they like. Favas hate it here. But they do produce a little seed, so I think a landrace might work. I'm just not interested enough in them right now to even try.