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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Mar 31, 2018 22:56:10 GMT -5
Just curious about a few things. Just a quick succinct response from each of you would be great.
From a consumer viewpoint, a culinary viewpoint, and a farmer/gardener viewpoint: What traits are you interested in most in the various peas/beans?
An example: From a consumer viewpoint i really like colors that stand out. From a culinary viewpoint i think i kinda like snow peas and really sweet shelling peas over snap types. Beans i like color and flavor when cooked in a crockpot and beans that hold their shape rather than becoming mushy.
I have not experimented much with using dried peas for cooking myself, though i have eaten split peas and lentils. Not sure if all starchy peas can be used in the same ways. Is a round smooth starchy pea a soup pea? Are soup peas, marrowfat peas, and grey peas all the same? Is there any desire in preserving these old types? A market for them?
The reason i ask is i'm just curious as what general trends there are for peas (and beans) from these different viewpoints, and if there is a difference by country/region. Wondering what traits i should be breeding for. I have several pea lines and/or genes in my collection that could be nurtured specifically to create future specific new varieties. I just don't know what is of most interest to people.
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Post by oxbowfarm on Apr 1, 2018 7:02:01 GMT -5
Not all soup peas are the same. The modern green and yellow soup peas grown commercially naturally disintegrate into a puree when cooked. That isn't universal among old fashioned soup peas like Capuciners, which remains whole after cooking, much more like a dry bean does. I actually find them more interesting culinarily, but the modern plant type with the hypertendril/afila gene combined with dwarf foliage is a lot easier to plant, not needing trellising.
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 1, 2018 7:45:52 GMT -5
It's interesting you bring up color. While I also agree that my personal preferences skew towards bold and interesting colors, for a lot of the edible legumes I think commercial preferences skew in exactly the opposite direction. That is for a lot of things like peas, chickpeas and the like the market actually favors those that are as UN colorful as possible, or to put it more accurately are as white as possible. Peas are a good example, They come in all sorts of colors, brown, tan, purple, speckled; mottled etc. But unless you are going for a specific colored variety (like Carlin) or an heirloom you will be hard pressed to find a pea soup OR snap whose skin is not dead chalk white.
The reason for this is probably that there is a link between high color and the presence of assorted other substances in the seed. Most of those things are there to help the seed grow and survive or resist predators and parasites. But they also tend to make the pea taste bitter so are undesirable for human eating and roughed out when possible.
In some more exotic food legumes this difference is even more extreme. Lablab beans (the hyacinth beans people put in their gardens) IS eaten as both a green vegetable and dried pulse in Asia but the dried one is invariably an ivory seeded on with no tinge of the purple color of the ornamental because some of the chemicals in those are so nasty the non white seeds are actually poisonous when ripe unless leached)
Some color preferences are cultural. Pretty much all azuki and rice beans grown are red because in Asia red is lucky. Trying to sell a non red type is all but an exercise in futility.
Mungs tend to always be green skinned. Mothe beans tan.
Soy is a complicated case. Soybeans destined for a life as tofu are pretty much invariably white or buff (even though I understand black skinned ones tend to actually be more digestible) because people expect tofu to be snow white (why in this day and age, one would not just grow a black skinned one and dry split it to get the seed coat off before processing I do no know. Probably a case of "we've never done it that way before, and it's too much trouble to do it that way now." Black skinned ones tend to go towards making black bean sauce where the stuff is so dark no one notices what color the starting beans were. This actually means that black soybeans are a bit more diverse than buff ones, since the gene for green cotyledons (like in peas) is tolerated there and not in them. Green skinned mature soybeans (as opposed to immature ones) are not that commercially common but mostly get used (I think) in frozen products. Also a lot of edamame soybeans are green skinned (the extra green gives them a boost in growing)
I mostly grow for exoticism so my personal preferences are usually defined by "whatever the industry DOESN'T like". But I have bumped into things I think SHOULD be brought into the cultural commerce as useful. Peas with the Orc gene (makes them orange inside, like lentils) would me more nutritious. I fiddling around with soy I think has the wrinkle seed gene like peas, because I think the result will end up being sweeter, tastier edamame (since the wrinkle seed gene means less sugar converted into starch) In the diversity of legumes, almost anything is possible.
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Post by Walk on Apr 1, 2018 8:29:06 GMT -5
We are vegetarians who eat lots of legumes that we grow ourselves. I would have to concur that different varieties of peas and legumes behave entirely differently in the kitchen. So we have varieties that we grow for specific cooking purposes. An example is the Porcelain bean (aka Snowcap?). It's a pole variety that has quite large pinto-colored beans with a white splash on them. When cooked they get very tender yet hold their shape, so we think they are the best beans for a bean salad. Flavors also are quite different in the different varieties, besides the textures, and it seems like color plays some part in this. Dark colored beans seem to have a more bold, "umami" flavor that stands up to the other ingredients in a dish, like using black beans for chili. The dark skinned beans also seem to germinate better in cold soils. White beans that cook into a mush are great for pates. The white runner beans are sometimes called potato beans for a reason, as that's what the texture and the flavor are reminiscent of when cooked. We used to grow a small red pole bean called Sangre de Torro - grew great, easy to harvest and shell and with its small size we were hoping that it would be quick cooking, an attribute we were hoping to add to our repertoire. But it takes much longer to cook than a large kidney bean, and for that reason we dropped it.
Most of the varieties we really like, including the Amplissimo Viktoria peas (which do make a great hummus), are pole varieties and so aren't available commercially. Home growers can enjoy so much more diversity than the average person getting their legumes from the store. As much as we like diversity, we do keep our varieties separate so we can propagate the attributes of each individually. The discussions of land race beans leave me puzzled as to how those pretty mixes would be used in the kitchen, which is our ultimate goal here. Fun to look at and I'll have to admit that we grow an overabundance of varieties having been taken in with flashy-looking peas/beans, about 18 currently, although I think about half of that would be sufficient for our culinary needs. As for horticultural traits, being in the Midwest we are always challenged with humid, wet conditions and so look for varieties with pods that are mold and disease resistant. That is another reason that we grow so many pole varieties as they perform better with increased air circulation. In the end, the variety has to hold up in the garden as well as the kitchen or we don't grow it. Sorry to be so long-winded and not succinct, but this is a complex, multifaceted topic.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 1, 2018 9:56:24 GMT -5
Cool! These are great responses!
Yeah i guess that is right that nearly each bean does have a different flavor and maybe that is tied to different coats and colors.
In regard to peas yeah sometimes bitter flavor is tied to colors like anthocyanins, but i don't think that may always be the case. But all interesting points nonetheless.
In regards to peas specifically at this juncture i asked the original question because from some of the pea crosses new and unexpected qualities have shown up. Such as what i think is referred to the maple coat pattern over brown seeds and used as a grey pea so it has lots of starch makes its own gravy and holds its shape. An old style pea for sure and not very common. But one cross has the same maple pattern but over light green colored seed coat that looks quite nice actually. Not sure if it is marketable / desirable in its current state. But maybe it is. Another surprise was the heavily branching one from last year that several people are trialing for me. I think it was the most productive pea i had from one plant. But the peas themselves are more modern being nearly white (maybe some pink color) small and round. Probably a "soup pea" but different than the large starchy grey pea described above. So culinary qualities i have no idea.
A post from another forum have an unexpected response. She is looking for struggles pea pods for her snow and snap peas. Previous discussions have talked about the Sin2 gene and how it is heat dependent and hard to breed with. But maybe there are other forms out there! The original sin gene did not have these drawbacks but was lost. But theoretically could be out there.
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Post by rowan on Apr 1, 2018 14:16:29 GMT -5
The market I grow for (seed sales to home gardeners) prefers diversity, as do I so I am happy with a wide range of colours and flavours in all vegetables. I, myself, prefer snow peas and broad beans for the legumes I eat, and unfortunately, here in Australia we have no culture of eating dry beans so I don't sell a lot of interestingly coloured beans. I do have orders for as many broad bean varieties that I can grow though.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Apr 1, 2018 22:37:02 GMT -5
Agriculturally, I prefer to grow beans rather than peas. Because my garden is infested with pea we-evils that lay their eggs on the young seeds, and they eat the inside out of the seeds. I can kill them by freezing, but it takes a tremendous amount of care to harvest them, quickly, dry them quickly, and get them in the freezer. My customers don't want to buy dry peas with bugs in them. Pisum sativum is the only species I grow that has that problem. Peas are very productive for me, but I tend to not grow them because of the predator. It might be possible to grow pea seed without the weevils, if I planted them as a fall crop instead of a spring crop. But timing is tricky. If I harvest shelling, snap, or snow peas the weevils are not big enough for anyone to notice. But it's much easier to buy pea seed than to raise my own. However it's my policy to not buy seeds, so I more or less stopped working with peas.
My niche market is people that like diversity. So I sell what I call hundred bean soup mix at market. There's many hundreds of varieties in it now, but who's counting? I'm not. The soup mix includes any species of bean or pea. Whatever grew really well this year. Some stay firm during cooking, some turn to mush. Culinarily, and taste wise, that's the best possible outcome to please my pallet. If I get one to three favas in a bowl of soup, that's just enough to enjoy them without being bothered by the tough skin.
Regarding taste, I tend to select all of my varieties for more robust flavors. That is often associated with being more colorful. Also, I figure that more colorful foods tend to be more nutritious.
I tend to grow mostly common beans, because they are the most productive for me. Altogether I grow 10 species of pulses. Incrementally each year, they grow a little bit better for me.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Apr 2, 2018 0:19:31 GMT -5
Agriculturally, I prefer to grow beans rather than peas. Because my garden is infested with pea we-evils that lay their eggs on the young seeds, and they eat the inside out of the seeds. I can kill them by freezing, but it takes a tremendous amount of care to harvest them, quickly, dry them quickly, and get them in the freezer. My customers don't want to buy dry peas with bugs in them. Pisum sativum is the only species I grow that has that problem, so I more or less stopped working with peas.- Yes that stinks. I don't think i have that problem here (knock on wood) but it does sort of annoy me that you do. Do you think beans have more bitter chemicals that keep them safe? Do you think there is a way to breed a variety that is pea weevil resistant? Some think that anthocyanins create bitter taste, do you think purple podded and purple seeded varieties might be more robust for you? I requested a sample of some pisum fulvum seeds for breeding, do you think a wild relative could help in that regard or are you pretty much done with peas that its not even worth trying for you anymore? Perhaps you just need hard leathery shelling peas to resist the weevil. Now you have me thinking about how to breed a better tasting purple podded shelling pea. I think i have good germplasm for it. Hmm. Yes i think capujiners aka blue podded could be much improved for flavor as a shelling pea. |
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Post by richardw on Apr 2, 2018 2:53:42 GMT -5
The market I grow for (seed sales to home gardeners) prefers diversity, as do I so I am happy with a wide range of colours and flavours in all vegetables. I, myself, prefer snow peas and broad beans for the legumes I eat, and unfortunately, here in Australia we have no culture of eating dry beans so I don't sell a lot of interestingly coloured beans. I do have orders for as many broad bean varieties that I can grow though. Pretty much the same here too. dont sell a lot of pea seed but where beans sell well, mostly fava. |
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Post by reed on Apr 2, 2018 5:49:06 GMT -5
Peas grow fairly well here and probably could do a lot better with more effort but they are not a traditional crop in this area so I don't have a lot of experience with them. They don't seem very productive to me, lots of space needed for little yield.
Common beans are what I grow most of. I grow pole types cause they don't get knocked down and splashed with mud during storms. I don't know how many varieties are in my mix and have a LOT more random crossing than most stuff I've read indicates there should be. If you have bumblebees then common beans will commonly cross, so much so that the few I like to keep separate to can for green beans have to be semi-isolated.
Last few seasons I'v put more effort into Lima beans and runner beans and am seeing a good increase in yield from my own seeds, especially with the Lima beans. I think this year I may stop planting and saving the common and runners separately as I see crossing there too, enough to stop considering them as separate crops at least in the dry bean patch. I guess I will never know what is what cause there are too many possible parental combinations and I hate tagging, tracking and record keeping, if it grows good and tastes good that's all I need to know.
I like using all of them together for soup except for black but they show up even if I don't plant any. Seems almost like a person could plant two whit beans and in future seasons end up with some black ones.
I have never grown or even seen a cow pea plant but have some seeds and gonna grow some out this year. I'v also never seen broad beans or fava beans, wouldn't mind trying them out too but I'm pretty limited on space so my new thing for this year will be the cow peas.
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Post by shmack1 on Apr 7, 2018 1:12:30 GMT -5
As I sit here eating my braised pinto beans I came across this thread and thought it was fitting..
As a consumer I love diversity in colours and shapes but, as a farmer the majority of people don't like to stray to much from the norm which is green straight and skinny for fresh beans. Like rowan said not much of a dried bean culture in Aus. But I have bean growing out hundreds of varieties to find what I like to eat for myself and potential markets.
I like snaps and snows and Shellie's equally for eating myself but snows and snaps are the ones that sell at markets.
Haven't tasted a good snap or snow colored pea yet, so I'm interested in that.
Broadbeans or favas as you guys call them,
Are great to grow and eat but the double peeling gets old quick. I'd like to see a fava bred with this trait removed..
Just venturing into the realm of cow pea,or I think you call them southern pea.
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Post by rowan on Apr 7, 2018 2:30:49 GMT -5
Pick them young Shmack and you don't have to double peel them. I never have and thought it was a weird fad when someone suggested this.
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Post by mskrieger on Apr 9, 2018 16:06:54 GMT -5
As a grower and consumer, I have to take my family's tastes into consideration. My kids love snap peas and snow peas both--they eat them raw, so sweetness, flavor and tenderness are important. We grow them in the garden. The family like shell peas too but we only buy them frozen, growing them requires far too much room to make it worth it. (My husband grew up with shell peas mixed with corn as a primary vegetable, so we make it regularly.)
Green beans: Asian yard long beans grow and yield well in my conditions, taste good, don't suffer pests or diseases and fill the green bean niche admirably. I grow both green and red ones.
Chickpeas and lentils: I cook a lot of Mediterranean dishes. I can buy big bags of many different colors/types of chickpeans and lentils from the Pakistani grocer near me. I like them all.
Baked beans: New England is baked bean country and there are some local varieties that taste really good when cooked in that fashion. I buy yellow-eye beans (I think a Maine variety?) from my co-op and they are grown by farmers in my region. I use them for recipes for baked beans, soup beans and also where Italian recipes ask for cannelini beans. Color doesn't matter so much as taste and cooking quality, and these yellow-eye beans taste good and cook soft and quick if you soak them.
Black eyed peas: Same species as yard-long beans but space constraints dictate I buy them. Same Pakistani grocer carries them, but no choice in color (always cream with black eyes) even though I know in the US South there is a huge diversity of them (crowder peas, Southern peas, whatever you want to call them.) For some reason local farmers don't grow them, I don't know why.
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Post by blueadzuki on Apr 9, 2018 17:22:06 GMT -5
It has to do with the fact that a lot of Cow peas as just too darn long season to work up here, or we're too cold for them (all cow peas like it hot, but for some of them, "hot" means bloody tropical)
But if it's a cow pea you want I have a growing out project I'm trying to accumulate growers for I'm running on my other gardening site. I'll PM you the details. If they are acceptable, you're in.
Actually why don't i just start a thread here so ANYONE who wants in has a chance.
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Post by prairiegardens on Jun 24, 2018 21:18:10 GMT -5
Snow or sugar peas , beans that have flavour . Right now I am head over heels with of all things scarlet runner beans. You have to harvest them young, you have to destring them but the make a glorious display and bees love them. I like them frenched which apparently nobody does anymore, so they're a bit of work, but I planted some this spring that had been lost in the back of a junk drawer in an outbuilding for who knows how long, at least 12 years, frozen solid every winter and all but two germinated. That's my kind of plant lol.
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