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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 12, 2018 23:54:40 GMT -5
Put sixteen of my tomato seed saving piles in to ferment. Saved the Big Hill and the wild ones for later. I find it odd that so many people ferment tomato seeds. It seems unnecessary to me. I don't ferment mine. |
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Post by richardw on Aug 13, 2018 0:42:33 GMT -5
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Post by richardw on Aug 13, 2018 2:58:05 GMT -5
On paper is a pain in arse, fermentation is easy enough though ive never tried the trisodium phosphate with bleach method.
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 13, 2018 7:19:27 GMT -5
Well I'm still learning what works best. But I've tried saving on just paper towels and while its annoying that the seeds stick to it, it seems to work fine, germination seems unaffected, though I've never done actual germination tests. It would be interesting to see germination on fermented vs non-fermented to see actual scientific data on whether it actually helps. I've also saved with wax paper, but that also is sort of messy as the gel seems to stay around even more and glue things together, but seeds are easier to remove and separate.
I don't think germination is worth enough to me to consider fermentation methods, but perhaps if it helps get cleaner seeds that are easier to handle, then that is something i would consider to be worth it. Commercial tomato seed is always so easy to handle. If fermentation is responsible i am now more interested than i was before.
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Post by reed on Aug 13, 2018 8:05:55 GMT -5
I ferment mine a little then rinse them real good on a screen and pat them dry by dropping the screen on a towel. After a couple pats they start clumping together, then I collect them up by dabbing them with another towel. Then I use a knife point to flick them off on to a GLASS plate using the knife to separate them. They end up perfectly dry and not stuck together. Works very well on my small scale.
I have wondered how commercial operations do it, my method would be way to tedious for them. I bet they ferment and then use some kind of moving air chamber to keep them from clumping.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 13, 2018 12:08:46 GMT -5
I shared tomato seeds this spring that I got from a collaborator. They were essentially paper towels containing dehydrated tomato juice and some seeds. I received a lot of complaints about them. The carbohydrates in the juice fed the microbes, leading to severe damping off. People didn't like that they couldn't count how many seeds they were planting. They expressed worries about diseases that fermentation helps to eliminate. I definitely won't be sharing non-cleaned tomato seeds again, no matter how precious the genetics. From a packaging standpoint, it was difficult to try to figure out how many seeds were in a lump of paper towel.
My fermentation method is to throw crushed tomatoes into a bucket. Let them ferment for a week to a month. Then use the garden hose to add water. I decant off the pulp. The seeds sink to the bottom. When I am left with only seeds, I dump them out onto a plate, and spread them out to dry. I end up with a clump of seeds. After drying, I rub it between my hands and the clump easily falls apart into individual seeds.
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Post by walt on Aug 13, 2018 14:59:51 GMT -5
All the seed processing methods mentioned work for those using them, so if it ain't broke, don't fix it. But I'll throw in my $0.02 anyway.
Back in 1978-1982, I was a professional tomato breeder and in charge to commercial tomato seed production for the Republique du Niger. Tomato seed exported from there brought $75 per kilo, big money for the 6th poorest country in the world, so we had to keep quality up.
We cut tomatoes in half and squeezed the juice and seeds, some of the pulp, into buckets and let them ferment for about 3 days. Floating moldy stuff floating on top was skimmed off and the liquid was poured out, while shaking to keep seeds suspended in the liquid while pouring. It was poured onto a plastic screen fine enough to keep seeds from being lost. Seeds dried a few days until they could be rubbed apart into seperate seeds, dried some more, and packed for export.
The tomato fruits, after seeds etc. were squeezed out, were sun-dried and sold for use in cooking.
For breeding lines and varieties I was testing to see if they were good enough to replace a variety we were growing, I couldn't be bothered with fermenting. I might have 100 types to keep sepperate, so I wanted to be quick, but also wanted quality. Those I'd put in a blender and fill the blander half full of water. Some of these breeding lines might have only on tomato from hand pollination. Others might be advanced lines with several blenders half full of tomatoes. I found the blender did best when half full.
So the blender was set at "puree". its highest setting. I blended for 15 seconds. If there was a lot of tomato in the blender when I started, the resulting juice-water mixture might be thick enough the seeds wouldn't settle to the bottom, then I'd have to pour into a big bowl of water and stir. Then the seeds would settle out. Either way, I'd pour of the liquid and leave the seeds, add more water and pour off again, until the water remained clear.
The blending got rid of the gel sacks around the seeds.
Seeds were poured onto glass or glazed plates or bowls to dry. When dry, clumps of seeds were broken up by hand. They generally came apart easily.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 14, 2018 0:48:27 GMT -5
For my own use on small lots of seeds, I love extracting tomato seeds with a blender. It's quick and easy. My blender tends to damage about 40% of the seeds so I can't do it for seeds that I sell, but for my own use and for gifted seeds it works well.
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Post by imgrimmer on Aug 14, 2018 1:40:53 GMT -5
on ... paper towels and while its annoying that the seeds stick to it If you put the paper in water for one day seeds sink to the ground. It is very easy that way. |
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Post by philagardener on Aug 14, 2018 6:35:58 GMT -5
For my own use on small lots of seeds, I love extracting tomato seeds with a blender. It's quick and easy. My blender tends to damage about 40% of the seeds so I can't do it for seeds that I sell, but for my own use and for gifted seeds it works well. A blender also works really well for releasing seeds from potato berries. Being smaller, individual seeds seemed to come through without much damage, but I'll have to recheck closely to confirm. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 14, 2018 7:51:20 GMT -5
Hmm, perhaps i should try it and see how well it works for me. It certainly sounds better.
I felt bad that the f2 pennelli seed i shared had lots of gel gunk with it, but i didn't know how to fix that. Top priority was saving seed.
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Post by Joseph Lofthouse on Aug 14, 2018 9:41:31 GMT -5
I felt bad that the f2 pennelli seed i shared had lots of gel gunk with it, but i didn't know how to fix that. Top priority was saving seed. Thanks. They got very widely disseminated and are now growing all over. |
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Post by keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.) on Aug 14, 2018 10:40:18 GMT -5
I felt bad that the f2 pennelli seed i shared had lots of gel gunk with it, but i didn't know how to fix that. Top priority was saving seed. Thanks. They got very widely disseminated and are now growing all over. Yeah, so that's good. Quite exciting. This year has been a partial bust on the tomato front for me, but perhaps next season or over the winter i can try to share more of what i have left. I still have A few F1 seeds for an alternate pennelli line with a different domestic parent. And S. Sitiens and S. Lycopersicoides. Not sure how valuable they are for this project or not, but would be fun to share widely. I'm looking forward to trying out future seeds from this project from others. I think i still have peruvianum, galapagense, cheesmaniae, and some volunteer tomatoes in the garden. One volunteer might be an f2 pennellii. |
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Post by walt on Aug 14, 2018 14:16:33 GMT -5
For my own use on small lots of seeds, I love extracting tomato seeds with a blender. It's quick and easy. My blender tends to damage about 40% of the seeds so I can't do it for seeds that I sell, but for my own use and for gifted seeds it works well. I never had that happen. Different blender I guess. Different speed. Different blade sharpness. Might be good for people trying a blender for the first time to try on expendable seeds first.
The tape on the blades idea sounds good if your blender does eat seeds.
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Post by richardw on Aug 14, 2018 15:06:14 GMT -5
Got another grower coming to join our seed co-op this summer, she calls herself 'the mad tomato lady', she recently sent me some tomato seed on paper, i'll have to make sure the seed she supplies for the website is fermented, as Joseph has discovered not ideal to be sending seed on paper out to people.
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