permiculture esque ideas using trees

[Deleted]

a few ideas with the inclusion of trees into field ag.
one is using a tree planted at a certain density, something like a maple, the leaves not being acidic to negatively effect the soil, but then again if an acidic leafed tree was used you could just remove leaves in fall. using these trees as trellising for things such as vining cowpeas, winter squash, muscadines, and such. pruning them correctly to make sure they stayed within harvest able height, and easily pruneable height, pruning to maintain very little canopy, more just trunks for making trellising (could use ropes to further the trellising system) with a small patch of leaves on the outside edge to keep the tree healthy (literati bonsia esque). the tree, possibly even muscadine/tree combo, is then when nitrogen usually would be leeched from soil, be taken back up by the tree, could even plant muscadine once tree is grown at far outer limits of trees limbs, so perennial roots capturing nitrogen are more evenly distributed through the field, then the trimming of said tree could be used for feeding something like a goat, or simply laid down as a mulch. but it maybe beneficial to do major trimming not far into spring to increase sunlight onto the ground, and there certainly would be a cycle of yearly trims that would have to be figured out, and that cycle different for each tree species, if fed to a goat you could use the extra carbon sticks left over for additional erosion control, put back in a pattern to stop erosion, you could really possibly utilize many tree species. could use some fruiting tree, or if a maple, in the end could be tapped for syrup. as long as the canopy isnt too dense you could use grow corn and such.
another one is one with pitch pines. plant a field with pitch pines at a certain density, not known to me at this moment, plant also with corn or whatever crop (i just love corn to much), fertilize with piss, once the field is nearly to salt ridden, let the salt be leached out by the pines (ive heard pines have alot of salt in them and that is why you dont use them for as ash liming soil). to export the salt simply remove the woods and leaves elsewhere, yes the leaves would be acidic but you could possibly mulch other acid loving plants with them if located close, or locate them close by. when cut down the pitch pines regrow and therefore would remove salt at an even faster rate. this one im less sure about but it seems possible. both would be alot of work, but i think energy would be used more efficiently, both would at times require removing roots, idk if i.ll ever get to play out these dreams, maybe. any thoughts? 

[reed]

I have a lot of Black Locust trees which I use in a lot of ways. Live trees cut down to about then feet serve as posts for permanent overhead wires that I then use to support bean poles or strings. The shoots off the trunks sometimes are used as the poles.
A dense cluster of smaller trees that sprouted up from others I removed and that I keep thinned out some so I can walk through are full of grapes and kiwi but I have not done a good job of keeping the fruit at an easy picking height. I was thinking I might girdle the taller trees and let the dead branches break on their own and pull the vines down with them. Last year squash vines escaped into the mess as well, those fruits were heavy enough to pull the branches down on their own so they were easy to pick.

I think though, it is kind of a problem when weather gets hot and dry and everything is competing for the limited water. Actually I think the grapes might be the winners there as those trees seem to largely defoliate in late summer when others don't.

I only sometimes collect the tree leaves and twigs off the ground and add them to compost.

[diane]

Perhaps you live in a treeless area. I don't. The neighbour's tall conifers block the sun entirely all winter.

I have grapes growing into some of my many trees, like filberts. I don't manage to harvest them, but the squirrels and raccoons do. Even fruit trees cast too much shade for vegetables, so I have rented a sunny allotment garden to grow vegetables. It seemed a miracle when I was finally able to grow zucchini.

[Deleted]

ya the losses would be in a dry year their would be less water, but at the same time it makes a field of corn more variable, so maybe that is an evolutionary advantage, that even in a wet year, the crop would be growing on dryer land near the tree, variability of the seasonal tests having adaptive benefits i believe, but here in the southeast usa many years we have too much water, there would be some losses to nitrogen applied, though i dont think it would be significant enough n loss to not give the crop enough, and in a dry year, where it was to dry to make a crop, you could still recover the nitrogen applied, because the tree picks it back up and gives it to the goat. i happen to a have somewhat a disdain for most trees near my garden, i understand the shading issue, these would just be trimmed like bonsai to massively limit their canopy, with extensive trimmings done once or more a year, so yes some shade would be produced, but i believe as long as you have the structure of the tree very thin and lanky no more than 4-8 limbs per tree, and those lanky arms are continually being cleared of branches except at the very end, where you maintain enough leaves to keep a healthy tree, i think you could do it. the pitch pine idea, the trees would be removed when you are trying to grow crops, only allowed to grow when you are trying to harvest the salt from the field, so there wouldnt be much shading issues. i think at my next location im gardening i may plant a few maples in the center of the garden, i enjoy trimming trees into bonsai esque shapes anyways, find it fun and interesting. would a sugar maple be worth planting in the upstate of sc to try to eventually tap for syrup or should i just stick with a red maple? im still uncertain if i ever would get goats, but if i could produce enough tree limbs to feed them to offset some of my input to them, maybe eventually, it would be difficult as i may only have an acre or so to work with.

[mskrieger]

I'm agreeing with diane here--seems to me trees would compete too hard with the veggies. Trees get what they need first. And cast way too much shade. The only person I know who successfully does what you suggest is someone with a very small yard who keeps dwarfed fruit trees (peach, fig, apple) in pots pruned to 7' or shorter and grows vining vegetables along the border fence which faces the street and gets full light exposure on three sides.

I don't suggest pitch pines in particular. I had one---quite beautiful, trained like a giant bonsai--shading my greenhouse on the south side and only orchids and other shade-accustomed plants grew well in the greenhouse and only rhododendrons and pachysandra grew in the understory. Pitch pines also shed pitch and needles like nobody's business, it's a huge mess. They do well in poor, acidic soils and they do grow by the beach but I don't know if they actively bioremediate or just tolerate it.

[Deleted]

i think you guys are misenterpritting the density I plan on planting them, and the density at witch the canopy is sustained, maybe one tree per 2-3000 sqft,and if that tree lived for 100 yrs you may get rid of some of those trees, with 4 limbs that stay 4 ft off the ground at a horizontal plane, as it grows out there maybe a few more limbs but not much, all at horizontal plane, still, the lower the limbs the better because soil erodes so in time they will be higher off the ground, no limbs above head high. these limbs are most completely bare of any limbs when spring starts, pruned fully back, so there wont be much shade at all for much of the year, and only tops a years worth of growth on the limb, but that also could be pruned if needed, I will keep them appropriately trimmed and fed to goat or used as mulch to not have much shade. its a way of mining nutrients from deep within the soil. itll be a big tree in 20 yrs if I can stay at one place for that long, you'll see itll work I just got to keep it pruned to the right density to keep enough light on the ground. it may receive shade but only in certain places and not in those certain places all day ie under one of the 4 horizontal limbs, and keeping a few hundred sqft of foliage per 2-3000 sqft that is more shaded. the thing about the pitch pines is they would not be present when the crops where being grown, only grown when the salt was to be removed, they would be cut down and removed once crops where planted, they wouldn't shade because only their roots would be their when crops where grown. I think it would be the most efficient way to mine and remove salt from soil, do you guys have any other solutions?

[Deleted]

but also maybe to be certain I would believe some corn are better grown in scorching deserts and some more so humid cloudy places, so there maybe some selection even possible in the margin areas where leaves are more shading, for the plants that grow better in the shade. it seems almost always beneficial to grow some plants in less than ideal situation I would think. im not sure to how much a degree this is true, for the variation in ability to handle light levels, but anything canbe extrapolated over time, but to some extant it must be, I noticed my gaspe flint corn had darker leaves than my mesquakie indian corn or avati for whatever reason. my other favorite plant the bunched arrowhead grows better in a fully shaded understory than in sun, but certainly it relatives in the same family do all better in the sun to my knowledge, if given enough time and evolutionary chances, corn could ever possibly do the same about shade..., if given an infinite possibilities.

[steev]

I have a bunch of 360' rotating sprinklers; my plan is to till circles for veggies/whatever that they can water, planting fruit/nut trees in the inter-spaces, for wind-barrier and productivity; I'll only plant conifers out in what will be pasture, for shade and pine-nuts.

[reed]

I have a couple oak trees just west of one of my gardens and I think some things benefit from the shade they give in the late afternoons but I do have to go along once in a while and try to cut their roots on that side or that corner gets terribly dry.

That patch of locust with the grapes is interesting to me, I'm liking how it's turning out. The grapes don't appear hindered at all by competition from the trees. The trees are the ones being starved for water and losing their leaves in late summer, the grapes look great. Doesn't seem to hurt the trees, they just seem to go mostly dormant a couple months early. Just go to solve the issue of the fruit being too high up to pick.

[Deleted]

that was another benefit is wind protection, its like a partial wind break, should help crops from lodging, especially in a world that is being given more and more energy to the atmosphere as we speak. I've even wondered if I should grow a limb directly against the ground, this being beneficial and in the end have terracing capabilities, for stabilizing soil as erosion control, making a terrace out of a living limb. you maybe able to somewhat limit the drying capabilities of the roots by cutting limbs at the correct time, cutting in winter when plants have and don't usually need water, making sure wounds are healed before spring sap flow. if doing cutting in growing season I would believe it best to cut just before a good rain fall, so when the most sap is bleeding out the soil is being recharged anyways. but also by limiting the surface area of the canopy you are vastly limiting the amount of water it takes up, and is evaporated through leaves, because there is a lot less leaves than usual trees. im always planning on cutting out roots in the top layer of soil, i'll be continually cutting those out, i undertand i some years if i will have more drought, but that also building more drought tolerant (or wide range varability tolerant) variety. the droughtish being especially in certain places, but i think if i limit the canopy enough, ie if i have1/6 the amt of leaves surface area i should lose relatively maybe 1/6 the amount of water lost through evaporation. if i use the limbs as a terrace, against the ground, a maple will probably re roots itself, right? i like the idea of steev your layout, and that would be more water efficient if i plan on watering a garden, maybe i,ll do some in that layout, and plan to water some of my garden, maybe, it would make sense if i put the watered garden, without trees planted in center (nutrient mining plants) at the top of the hill, so that plants lower down the hill get the trickle down of nitrogen, ive always thought the highly soluble nitrogen of grazing animal manure, what im saying is around here they lived on balds at the top of mountains and it had a similar system of trickle down i think. also reed i get 7 more inches or rain on average than you, and i.ll be happy to have that, and if they get on my nerves trees can be cut down. im sure planting in certain places maybe funny, it may make sense to plant a few perenials around the tree itself, just something that hands the drought well, ive never eaten prickly pear cactus, maybe... i won't do the conifer experiment, i don't have enough land and the time to process that land through conifers to have a garden specifically used for recycling pee, just a good future development for anyone who need more nitrogen and doesn't have a way to get it, self sustaining. i may plant a few pitches just to bonsai(niwaki) with.

[Deleted]

so i guess a question is if i build the limbs on a contour to act as a terrace, it would recharge more water, if would act partially as a swale, but i guess my question is if the limb did hold back water, and in places it crested the limb, flowing to the other side, would this erode the back side of the limb swale or do you thing you could engineer a way around this, i mean i guess you could leave a small strip of pernial grasses to stop erosion but would this be enough, im sure their would be low spots, would this be more trouble than good? with possibly making more condensed water flow, leading to more erosion, or would their be a way to make sure the flow of water was directed into the correct place?

[philagardener]

I have seen swales constructed with a pipe outlet embedded into the slope that is shaped like a "J". That way, when the water fills up behind the swale, before it breaches the top it will overflow into the top of the "J" outlet, drop down and then emerge vertically (sort of like a fountain), dissipating the energy so it will do less damage.

[Deleted]

i was thinking with the concept about shade, it would seem beneficial, for time of climate instability such as if Yellowstone erupted, the 1814 eruption was quite small comparatively to possibly 4000x larger eruption that has happened before on this earth. to breed all crops for low light scenarios, as a safe guard for when these events happen, it certainly would be colder, so that obviously too, but also breed for low light, because our people of this earth may would have difficulty and would need at that point all the help they could get.

[nkline]

Just a thought, but I would make rows of black locust (they supposedly fix nitrogen)running north to south, let them grow a couple years the mow them at a foot and they will act more like a bush. There are some silviculture articles on it. Between this you can plant your crops and they will have direct sunlight for a shorter period during the day. Haveing tomatoes block the west sun from my garden helps it tremendously.

[khoomeizhi]

my experience with cutting down black locusts is that, yes, they'll come back as (very spiny) bushes, but they'll also send up suckers from the roots at some distance from the trunk - they won't stay in the rows they're planted in.