Apple Seed Vernalization Question

[blueadzuki]

Hi All,

So here is the situation.

Remember that apple tree in the shopping mall parking lot I mentioned in a thread a few years ago (the one I think is an old cider apple)?

Well, last fall, I went to get some fruit from it to send to the Ag station in Geneva New York for identification (i.e. to confirm it was an old cider apple, and possibly get someone to come down and take a cutting for the collection.

To my dismay, I found the tree fruitless (more or less, see below) and at least 90% dead. With it in that shape, I doubt the rest of it will survive the winter (and that also assumes that the village seeing that a tree that hangs over it's mall parking lot space is more or less dead, don't simply cut the whole thing down).

So here is the situation. When I went to the tree, I WAS able to collect a pair of withered fruits that had obviously been left from the previous year, and from one of them extracted three or four healthy looking seeds (I know apples don't come true from seeds, but it is the best I can do and might at least make something similar) which I want to plant.

My question is as follows, since the seeds already spent a winter outside (in the fruit) are they already vernalized and ready to be planted? Or do I need to vernalize them again now that they are removed? I don't have enough seed to try it both ways.

[diane]

Maybe you could take a few scions and keep them in the fridge till you find someone to graft them.

[blueadzuki]

A fine idea except 1. I don't know anyone to do that 2. As I said, the tree will probably be completely dead by the time I can take any scions in the spring (no point in taking scions if I end up taking them from dead parts) and 3. most importantly, the police there are NOT friendly or understanding and being caught cutting branches off a (nominally) public tree would probably result in me being in a LOT of legal trouble.

[reed]

I tried for a long time to sprout apples with no luck. Seems to me if they ever get dry they are dead. In the fridge they molded or sprouted and were very hard to plant and did not do well after sprouting in the fridge. Then I followed the suggestion of someone the forum, don't remember who it was.

Anyway now I take about any apple or pear in late fall into winter and simply spread the seeds on top of the ground, even on top of grass. Add a 1/4 to 1/2 inch layer of soil or compost on top and cover with a board or an old rug, cardboard or whatever. In spring before the last frost I take the cover off and poof, nearly 100% germination. when about four or so inches tall I transplant into pot and sell for $5.00 each at a flea market. They sell good.

I'm amazed how fast they grow, some I have only maybe five years old are ten feet tall, even had a few blooms last year but no apples yet.

These, having laid for a year may not act the same but what is what I'd try. 

[coppice]

I think your apple seed has had enough chilling hours. I might start them in damp paper towel under lights & under cover.

[flowerbug]

i think the seeds will sprout, the sad thing though is that the seeds are unlikely to be true to the parent tree's fruits, so you really would need to get some of the wood cuttings rooted or grafted. you can take as much small wood off the tree as you can get since it will likely be gone anyways, but at this point it may not matter. take those pieces of wood, use a bit of rooting hormone and put them in damp soil under a cover (to make sure it doesn't dry out) in a cool location and see if they'll root for you. otherwise grafting will be another possible approach but you have to get root stock for that.

the problem with seeds is that the genetics of apples are often very mixed when the fruits get pollinated. so the seeds in the fruits are not often even close to fully edible or usable as a fresh eating apple and the most common use of such sour fruits is for ciders as you think this is a cider apple tree anyways. well if you want those kinds of trees you can get them as both known varieties (clones) or plant seeds, but those plants may not be usable until some years later so most people won't do this because they want the known properties of the apples.

if you want to save this particular apple tree for the qualities of the fruits you need to keep the wood alive, somehow...

[flowerbug]

Jan 17, 2020 21:20:23 GMT -5 reed said:

I tried for a long time to sprout apples with no luck. Seems to me if they ever get dry they are dead. In the fridge they molded or sprouted and were very hard to plant and did not do well after sprouting in the fridge. Then I followed the suggestion of someone the forum, don't remember who it was.

Anyway now I take about any apple or pear in late fall into winter and simply spread the seeds on top of the ground, even on top of grass. Add a 1/4 to 1/2 inch layer of soil or compost on top and cover with a board or an old rug, cardboard or whatever. In spring before the last frost I take the cover off and poof, nearly 100% germination. when about four or so inches tall I transplant into pot and sell for $5.00 each at a flea market. They sell good.

I'm amazed how fast they grow, some I have only maybe five years old are ten feet tall, even had a few blooms last year but no apples yet.

These, having laid for a year may not act the same but what is what I'd try.

my one and only experience with sprouting apple seeds was taking seeds from a large number of various kinds of apples and putting them in a line down about an inch or two in our heavy clay in the fall.  i didn't cover it or do anything else in particular.  next spring i had an entire line of sprouts.  almost all of them germinated.  and like you said they grew quickly.  within two years they were a mix of heights from 2ft to 8ft.  many different kinds of leaves and my intention was to plant them out back but i never got around to it so i had to trim them back as they were going to shade surrounding gardens.the stems were thorny and i could see where these would end up being a very good hedge planting if you could get them tall enough that the deer would not run over them or eat them.  planted close enough together they'd be a formidable hedge.  the cuttings if you pollarded them could be used for smoking woods or other uses.  the sticks certainly seemed sturdy enough to be used as poles, etc.  after about five years of trimming back over half were still alive and i finally dug them out last fall.  it was only an experimental planting to begin with.  very easy to grow IMO, i can see why there are wild cider apple trees around (especially if you have deer around).

[blueadzuki]

Jan 19, 2020 5:05:02 GMT -5 flowerbug said:

i think the seeds will sprout, the sad thing though is that the seeds are unlikely to be true to the parent tree's fruits, so you really would need to get some of the wood cuttings rooted or grafted. you can take as much small wood off the tree as you can get since it will likely be gone anyways, but at this point it may not matter. take those pieces of wood, use a bit of rooting hormone and put them in damp soil under a cover (to make sure it doesn't dry out) in a cool location and see if they'll root for you. otherwise grafting will be another possible approach but you have to get root stock for that.

the problem with seeds is that the genetics of apples are often very mixed when the fruits get pollinated. so the seeds in the fruits are not often even close to fully edible or usable as a fresh eating apple and the most common use of such sour fruits is for ciders as you think this is a cider apple tree anyways. well if you want those kinds of trees you can get them as both known varieties (clones) or plant seeds, but those plants may not be usable until some years later so most people won't do this because they want the known properties of the apples.

if you want to save this particular apple tree for the qualities of the fruits you need to keep the wood alive, somehow...

To be fair, the apple isn't all that edible now. On that four flavor grading system they use for apples, it is definitely in the bittersweet area, emphasis on the bitter. There is a reason I nicknamed it the Kisco Spitter.

And you are of course right about apples having very mixed genes. It doesn't help that the nearest other apple tree to this one (and hence it's most likely pollinator) is a crab apple (which unlike this tree, is doing OK)

I suppose the best idea is to check in spring if anything is still alive, then contact the city director of land management (or whatever the title of the person in charge of the trees in the town are) and see if they'll either give me the permission to take the cuttings or, better yet, send someone to do it themselves (better because 1. they probably know someone who is good at rooting and grafting [maybe someone at the nursery across the street) and 2. city sent people can go on the other side of the fence where there may be better wood.

[flowerbug]

air layering (look it up) may work, but i've never attempted it with apples.

[keen101 (Biolumo / Andrew B.)]

I hope you succeed in whatever way works. Air layering is something I want to learn to be successful at. I tried designing my own 3d printed device for it, but it was a flop the first try.

I found a grafting thing at school. I will try to link the image...

[walt]

I've had good success grafting apples starting with my first try.
Cut the scion while the tree is fully dormant, and keep them cold and somewhat moist. I like the scion to be as wide as a pencil, or 1 1/2 that wide. Anywhere in that range.
As soon as the stock is starting to break dormancy, cut the stock at about a 30 degree angle, where the stock is just as wide as the scion.
Cut the scion at a 30 degree angle. Cut so the stock and scion fit closely.
Hold stock and scion together and tape them with masking tape, tightly.
Now the stock is breaking dormancy and starting to grow while the scion is still dormant. Since the graft heals for the stock up, the stock will start feeding the scion by the time the scion breaks dormancy.
When the scion starts showing bud growth, make a vertical cut in the tape to keep the tape from girdling the graft. Maybe a week later make another cut in the tape.
Other write that the tape comes off by itself. Maybe where it is more humid. But here the tape gets dry and hard, mummyfied, and never comes off by itself.

[flowerbug]

from what i recall you pretty much only need some mossy material that will hold some moisture, a big enough wrap to go around it and some tape to hold it all in place. once in a while check for moisture. nothing too special in terms of equipment.

the point about it being a public space and people messing with it is probably the hardest to get around.

[reed]

I collect seeds quite often and once in a while plant starts from public spaces. I do it in broad daylight sometimes during busy times and just act like I belong there, never had a problem. Private property is a little more tricky. If it's a house and I really want it I'll knock and ask, if it's in the yard proper. If it's accessible from the sidewalk I just help myself.

I currently have Japanese Maple seed from a funeral home parking lot, a really nice variety of American Holly from a drive thru bank and Southern Magnolia from multiple locations in a town near by. The magnolia is a very nice strain, lots of them in this little town are apparently volunteers from some very large ones in the yard of a church.

[jocelyn]

If you don't know if your apple seeds have enough chill and how dried out they got, try anyway.
You can fill a food tub with damp peat and lay the seeds on top. Put the lid on to keep them damp and pop in the fridge.
Check on them every few weeks to see if they are doing anything. Apples will start in the fridge when they are ready.

i.postimg.cc/15rmSXQ6/storing-seeds-in-fridge.jpg

[prairiegardens]

I've never bothered to refrigerate the seeds I've started. just keep them damp/wet and open the towel every day for oxygen and to check them. I've never had any problems with the sprouted seed..and I remember the seed, which might not happen if in the back of the fridge.... I do the same with Meyer lemon seed and now have a bunch of those coming to life as well as several plants now anywhere from 6 to 18 inches.