Orange Flint Corn - SESE

[kyredneck]

Anybody here have any experience with or know anything about this line of corn?:

www.southernexposure.com/products/cateto-sulino-flint-corn/

"Cateto Sulino Flint Corn

(orange) 100 days. [Blend of Argentine and Uruguayan landraces, selected in TN by Joshua Gochenour, for insect resistance, virus resistance, and bright orange color that indicates high carotene content.] Ears up to 8 in. on 5-8 ft. stalks. Kernels are such a bright orange, inside and out, that Farm and Sparrow bakery in North Carolina says it’s caused customers to ask why they’d put cheddar cheese in the bread they’d baked using it! Name may be roughly translated as “Southern Unrefined.” Small packet (42 g) has about 158 seeds.

Historical notes regarding the name Cateto:

The word Cateto is:

a) often used in Portuguese as an adjective to describe rice, to say that it is brown rice, and

b) used in Spain, and perhaps in Latin America, similarly to how people speaking English use the words redneck and hick.

Cateto corns were collected from the 1940s through the 1970s, in Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay, and Chile, during multiple seed collecting expeditions by multiple national and international organizations. Early maize researchers focused initially on Brazil. Given that Cateto corn had that name in Brazil, researchers, and therefore seed banks, just went ahead and called these strains of orange flint corn by “Cateto” no matter where they were grown. In Spanish speaking countries, farmers typically just call them by some form of "anaranjado", "colorado", "amarillo", or "duro" ("Camelia" in Chile). In Portuguese “Sulino” is sometimes used to mean “Southern,” and many field corns from Uruguay, Argentina, and southern Brazil were collected with this suffix attached.

Though the origin of the Cateto name is obscure, it might have been initially used to describe grains that were often looked down upon, and considered unrefined, because they were grown and eaten by lower-class people. Though many plant pigments are also nutrients, people in various parts of the world have at times considered whiteness of grains to be a sign of sophistication. This may have contributed to the use of the name Cateto in Brazil for orange field corns."


My main concern is if it is prone to lodging, would it have any resistance to wind? (my current spot to grow it is on top the hill)

[grano]

I think that corn is fairly new at Southern Exposure. After googling the grower, it looks like he's easy to contact.

[kyredneck]

Yea, thanks, thought about that, thought maybe could get a discussion going on orange flint corn, Argentine and Uruguayan landrace corns, growing flint corn in general, etc., found this

Profiles in Purple - Joshua Gochenour

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIDDcUn5TII

Lol, I'd say he'd be easy to talk to about corn.

[DarJones]

There is an orange corn available out of Hawaii that is rather interesting. www.hawaiiseedgrowersnetwork.com/product-page/nalo-orange-corn

Professor Torbert's orange corn is arguably the most refined for edible corn meal. professortorberts.com/ It is unavailable as seed.

Joseph was working with some high carotene lines at one time.

As for lodging with Cateto Sulino, it is listed as 5 to 8 feet tall. This suggests lodging will not be a major problem. All bets are off though if a very strong wind storm hits when it is tasseling and the ground is soft from heavy rain.

[kyredneck]

Apr 9, 2020 7:49:58 GMT -5 DarJones said:

, it is listed as 5 to 8 feet tall. This suggests lodging will not be a major problem. All bets are off though if a very strong wind storm hits when it is tasseling and the ground is soft from heavy rain.

Thanks for commenting Daryl. The one time I planted flint corn (Carol Deppe's line) in 2015 it got blown over in what I didn't consider to be serious wind. I'd appreciate your opinion/advice on how to plant (spacing between plants and rows mainly) this orange flint. I could arrange for a  18' x 48' plot down in my bottom, I've a pound of seed on order. I've not a lot of experience with corn. In the past I've good luck with Shoe Peg and Stowell's Evergreen planted zig zag 12" apart in double rows spaced about 2' apart. Would greatly appreciate your comments, or, anyone else's experienced advice. Teach me! 

[reed]

I'm not sure that kid knows what he's talking about. The purple color and yellow color have little to nothing to do with each other and the purple is extremely variable. If he wants a multi-color pop corn that would probably be pretty easy, there are already lots of them, but just purple and yellow not so much, maybe not even possible. The video was from a few years ago, wonder how his project has turned out, maybe he pulled it off.

I grew a landrace mix of orange corn last year that had the Cateto in it's ancestry. Got about 8 - 10 feet and had strong stalks. No bad wind storms last year though so not really sure of lodging resistance. It also had lots of northern flint corns mixed in too so not anything close to the pure strain.

I'm working on a highly ornamental flint corn that is variable in pericarp color but colorless in the aleurone. That will give it many colors but any individual ear is all the same color. Will look sort of like Deppe's Cascade Ruby Gold but more varied and much better adapted to Indiana.

I used CRG to bring in some pericarp color and for quick maturity but select against the small weak stalks. Mine also has ancestry from a Mexican landrace called Zapalote Chico which is very resistant to fall ear worms and a lot of influence from Bronze Beauty, a north eastern flint with varied pericarp. Mine also has a very high incidence of purple stalks and husks.

I select against the orange color, I know it's supposed to be good for you but it is too variable and messes up the uniform appearance of an ear. I'm focusing on white internal color instead.

[flowerbug]

if you have a worry about stalks getting blown over put up some wind break fencing.

around here it is usually corn or soybeans that are grown. i don't even try to grow sweet corn or rare varieties as it would be so hard to keep them from getting contaminated with GMO traits. besides we have a very healthy population of raccoons.

[kyredneck]

Apr 11, 2020 8:00:20 GMT -5 flowerbug said:

if you have a worry about stalks getting blown over put up some wind break fencing.

around here it is usually corn or soybeans that are grown. i don't even try to grow sweet corn or rare varieties as it would be so hard to keep them from getting contaminated with GMO traits. besides we have a very healthy population of raccoons.

Not sure how much of a wind break it will be but this 4' barrier fence is what I use to keep the chickens and Anatolian Shepherds out.

I don't think GMO contamination is a factor in the hill country I live in, and the dogs would love nothing better than to tangle with a raccoon, or a possum, or a ground hog, or a deer, or a skunk or.... ...breaks the monotony and makes them proud.

[kyredneck]

Apr 11, 2020 3:23:58 GMT -5 reed said:

I grew a landrace mix of orange corn last year that had the Cateto in it's ancestry. Got about 8 - 10 feet and had strong stalks. No bad wind storms last year though so not really sure of lodging resistance. It also had lots of northern flint corns mixed in too so not anything close to the pure strain.

I'm working on a highly ornamental flint corn that is variable in pericarp color but colorless in the aleurone. That will give it many colors but any individual ear is all the same color. Will look sort of like Deppe's Cascade Ruby Gold but more varied and much better adapted to Indiana.

I used CRG to bring in some pericarp color and for quick maturity but select against the small weak stalks. Mine also has ancestry from a Mexican landrace called Zapalote Chico which is very resistant to fall ear worms and a lot of influence from Bronze Beauty, a north eastern flint with varied pericarp. Mine also has a very high incidence of purple stalks and husks.

I select against the orange color, I know it's supposed to be good for you but it is too variable and messes up the uniform appearance of an ear. I'm focusing on white internal color instead.

Thanks for the info Reed, I could pick your brain to the point of aggravation about how to grow good corn if you'd let me, but a couple questions for now: Which do you prefer for cornmeal and grits, dent or flint corn? How would you grow/space this orange flint?

[reed]

I haven't experimented yet using my corn for meal but that is what I ultimately want so I can make corn bread. Mostly from reading I think flint is best for that and flint is supposedly a little more resistant to bugs and other critters. It is certainly more resistant to molds than flour is.

I grow all my corn in rows about 2 feet apart thinned to 12 to 15 inches apart in the rows. I guess I might get more ears per stalk if grown a little more separated but I want to grow as many plants as possible for now at least, until I get it all mixed up good. Since my patches will never be very large I need to keep lots of diversity to avoid genetic depression.

When I first got interested in corn I was focused on sweet corn. That turned out to be a waste of time for me. Sweet corn is like ice cream, a nice summer time treat but not real food. Hard to breed it in small patches cause too much of it is eaten instead of left to mature. Worthless to me as a money crop cause everyone and their dog sells it here and for money losing prices.

I tried some of the western flour corns, they don't like Indiana much, lots of mold in a damp year and turned out not good for a nice dry gritty corn bread like I want.

Then I learned that there are old northeastern flint corns and I really like them. The Mexican Zapalote Chico that I got from GRIN, in pure form is kind of a flinty dent but it has very high resistance to ear worms plus nice purple stalks and husks.

Now I've mixed it all up and will be selecting for flinty ears that have the worm resistance. First goal is an ornamental that can be sold for $5 for three ears instead of $5 for a dozen like with sweet corn. I've about achieved that so next is selecting and experimenting for the food qualities I want. I also want it to be short season maturity, dry ears in 100 days or less from planting.

For me the practice of trialing pure varieties of corn looking for that particular one turned out to be a waste of time. Descriptions in seed books and specific accounts by gardeners in other places almost never match up with how things turn out in my garden.

Corn is so easy cross though, whether you let it do it on it's own or control it by detasseling. Then pretty quickly at least in my experience, really cool stuff starts showing up. My corn has probably 100 or more kinds in it's ancestry. Lots of it is sweet or flour and other things I don't want but what is being planted this year 100% also has the multiple flints and the Zap Chico as at least 1/2 of the parentage.

I'll probably only grow about 500 plants this year but figure if I get as few as ten ears this year that match the traits I want that will be more that enough to start my new kind.

[kyredneck]

"purple stalks and husks"

Is that a personal preference or is this desirable for another reason?

[grano]

ky,
I think you will be happier with flint for grits. With very little floury endosperm, the grits will cook more evenly. The same corn, with a finer granulation, will make johnnycake. For cornbread, you can use anything, depending on preference. I prefer the floury for a cakey bread and pancakes.

Ideally, one would only plant flint and flour maize, each for different food needs. Dent has two advantages: yield and dual-use from one plot. Fortunately, the floury endosperm breaks more finely on first break, so it can be separated with a sieve.

Recommend Deppe's The Resiliant Gardener for a discussion of maize types and uses. However, she doesn't really consider dent. Neither does she consider milling popcorn. Another good resource is Boutard's Beautiful Corn.

[DarJones]

Corn spacing entirely depends on how large the stalk gets. A short and fast maturing variety that produce a 6 inch ear will produce abundantly with as little as 6 inches between stalks and 2 feet between rows. A full season southern dent that gets 8 to 10 feet tall and makes large ears needs 15 inches between plants and 3 feet between rows. I tried planting corn in double rows back in 1988. Never again. It is too time consuming to cultivate. Now I grow in rows 36 inches apart with seed spaced according to the variety's needs. I till with a troybilt tiller and weed between plants with a 4 prong weeding fork. It usually takes 2 or 3 times cultivating before the corn is large enough to suppress weeds.

I'm more in favor of a hard dent corn as compared to a true flint. Flint corn makes the best grits, but for cornbread, I'll take the dent. If making tortillas, a softer dent or flour corn is best.

[reed]

Apr 12, 2020 10:12:17 GMT -5 kyredneck said:

"purple stalks and husks"

Is that a personal preference or is this desirable for another reason?

It's a personnel preference due to a happy accident. The Zap Chico strain I got from GRIN had been selected for it, I don't know why. The husks especially are a dark red/purple. Then some nice flinty plants showed up in Joseph Lofthouse's Harmony grain corn. They had dark purple stalks and leaf veins. They also had nice big kernels, one with the chinmark pattern. 

I don't know how many different colors there really are as far as pericarp goes but everything from white to dark red and chinmark is in the mix. I'm selecting for white internal color and colorless aleurone. It should look a lot like Carol Deppe's Cascade Ruby Gold except even more varied and with the colorful stalks. And it is happy in Indiana! It should be much earlier than any of the so called Indian corns that are sold around here and much prettier. I don't know if I'll go that route but it should be easy to capture that market with the first and best. 

I don't know if the colorful stalks is really good, bad or neutral as far as culinary quality goes but I don't see how it hurts to encourage it for now at least.   I hope they stay around as I start selecting more for culinary quality too. 

I figure the ornamental aspect will be pretty well set this year. Also hope to begin experiments with corn breads and polenta I've never had either one made from my own corn. Unlike with sweet corn I can sample individual ears and save seed both.  

[12540dumont]

Why select for purple: The purple corn makes a good dye. A common use of corn for dyeing by the native Americans.