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Post by americangardener on Oct 20, 2008 14:22:57 GMT -5
One of the reason why there was no feed back might have been my friend Dave talking a lot about incorporation issues, quite a technical and dreadfully dry topic for almost everybody, and for us non americans a non issue, since our laws are so different....  Yeah.. dry and boring.. but just one more thing i have to work on to get it all put together Michel. Even more boring to have to do than to talk about. Dave alanbishop.proboards60.com/index.cgi?action=bookmarks |
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Post by canadamike on Oct 20, 2008 18:34:24 GMT -5
Believe me, I believe you  It is just that I think your comments did not invite response but, maybe, from highly knowledgeable people in that field. So, you might very well not have been speaking alone, even if not answered to I, for example, was following it , but what was there to answer for a guy like me?? |
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Post by Alan on Oct 26, 2008 22:37:18 GMT -5
Dave,
You've got my support 100% on all that your doing buddy and I think it's a great thing. Don't listen to the detractors on the other site, their just afraid of what they already know, that you have your head on straight and that your on your way to making something of your grand idea.
I think the gardeners network is a great idea and completly avoids the isolation issues associated in having only a small collective of seed growers, you just have to find reliable people who produce reliable seed using technical knowledge and it will work just fine. Tomatoes will be where MOST of the money in garden seed comes from (to some degree it's a bit unfortunate giving the low numbers of people working with and saving other crops). I would, if in your shoes, when you make available your first offerings make some "rare garden seed" packages wherein one could buy a number of different seeds for different crops, complete with the history of the seed, cultural information, and correct seed saving methods wherein seed can then be used as a learning expereince and as an extension to promote the further growing of and sharing of other important seed crops. Of course this is all speculative and in the future.
I do have some other ideas and will spend some time this week trying to write them down coherently in an attepmt to give you some futher feedback.
In closing, please keep the updates coming, feel free to post what you want, and know that you have our complete support in ths endevour.
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Post by americangardener on Oct 27, 2008 0:33:09 GMT -5
Thanks Alan.. i've always felt i could count on your support. It's the one thing i've felt ever since i first found this forumn of yours, this place feels like a home and you're all like a family to me. And i thank you and all the wonderfull friends i've made here for the encouragement.
As for what people say on those other forumns.. i don't care much about that. I can read people pretty well and if they want to bring up my motives for doing trials.. i can bring up their motives for not wanting me to do them. We'll see who's doing what out of greed. Besides, people like that who tell me i can't do something just make me focus harder on getting it done. I'm stubborn that way i guess. Not that i care one bit about whether or not i have my trials on their sites or not.. it's just the principle involved. I can do everything i need to do with my friends here, but the way i see it if they don't want other people to be growing out and selling heirloom tomato seeds they're hypocrites.
Ok.. so, i'm spending too much time thinking about what other people think and not getting anything done. I feel like things are going way too slowly.. sometimes i wonder why i don't just speed things up.. and then i look at how much more i still need to do. There's still a thousand pieces of this puzzle i got to get together to make this work..and in the right order, and right now i'm not even sure i got all the pieces. That's the frustrating part. Not seeing things shaping up quick enough. I keep changing my mind on alot of different things and i've yet to get the people i need set up to get the feedback i need.
I know i started this thread out talking about the business plan.. and how it dosen't need to be anything complicated... but you should see my notepads. It's gonna take me weeks just to get that one document all put together. So, so much for simple.
I kinda liked that idea about the growers network myself Alan.. glad i thought of it. It does solve alot of problems with my not having unlimited space or time to get all my inventory trialed and tested. That alone would take me decades to just trial everything. And if i can count on a few others here to help with seed increases.. that's another issue taken care of. Course i'll be needing a much larger growers network and i'll be needing to figure out how the compensation will work.. the assurances of seed purity and all that. But, i like it.. it'll just take some work to get the bugs worked out.
I tend to agree that the tomatoes are the big money maker.. those and hot peppers.. and from my past experience gourds of all things seem to be very popular. I should have enough varieties out of the 2000 or so tomatoes to be able to get a good listing for start up. Peppers I'm not sure about... i have about a thousand varieties, but just a few well known ones where i have alot of seeds stockpiled. Those i'm most likely gonna be looking for help with seed increases for quite awhile. And the gourds.. well i can't remember the last time i grew any.. i got alot of different varieties from trades.. but i haven't grown any in years.
Course i'm gonna be wanting to have a little bit of everything when i start up the site. I don't know about how everyone else is.. but i know myself. I know when i've shopped around thru seed catalogs in the past i would first look for lowest prices.. then i'd look for the varieties i wanted to order.. and then i would usually send my entire order to just one company. And in those days i used to spend a couple hundred dollars on seeds every year. I hated going from one company for tomatoes to another for squash, and then yet another for beans. It might be just me.. but, none the less i do want to have at least a few of every type vegetable to start out. Just in case there are others like me.
I'm not so sure i'll be able to get the history for most of these before start up though alan. I hear what you're saying.. i know i love reading about the histories of different varieties when i browse the descriptions. It's just that only a few of the seedsavers who've sent me seeds have ever sent any histories along with em.. and i don't want to be making up anything i'm not 100% sure of like i've seen some people do. I will work on collecting those histories though. I'd like to put some history and seedsaving info pages on the website if i can get it set up. Something like they do with Seeds of change, or even Trudi's wintersown site where they give some pretty detailed directions. I'd even like to see if i couldn't borrow Rebsie's directions on how to hybridize peas.. i really enjoyed that one. But, again.. just one more thing to work on. I figure it's easier to put it on site than to put it on packages.. and then i get the added traffic from people who come to look for instructions... maybe they'll like em so much they'll buy something. Maybe they'll think enough of em to post links in gardening forumns which might bring new customers too. You're right though.. it will be future improvements to the website. I doubt i'll get that detailed when i first start out. I do hope to be offering seed saving supplies to start though.. i'll have to figure out a way to do that. I'd like to offer simple things like the organza bags.. and the mosquito netting, and perhaps tweezer and xacto knife kits and stuff like that. You know all the stuff a good home gardener might want or need to be doing his own self pollinating with.
Anyways.. i'll be looking forward to hearing about any and all ideas you might offer.. and anyone else for that matter. I've got a few others like i said.. they won't neccessarily have to be put in the business plan.. but just things i've been writing down.
I don't know if you're old enough to remember Alan.. maybe some people here might. But when i was a child they used to have ads in the backs of comic books and magazines like field and stream and even organic gardening where they would try and get people(kids) to sell their vegetable seeds door to door. I did it.. once! Got a big box of seeds in the mail.. and went out and sold about half of em door to door. Made enough to send back the payment for the seeds and kept the leftovers for myself. Not that i'm thinking of sending a herd of kids out knocking on doors. But i do think i might come up with something where i could make some collections of the more well known varieties available to fund raising groups. Let the schools be responsible for turning all the kids into door to door salesmen, since they do that already. It's just a thought.. but perhaps in the future it'll be something i'll look into more.
Anyways.. there's my rant for today.. not much about business plans.. but just some thoughts. One thing i can use is some ideas on a business name. I've got some i'd like to throw around and see what sticks.. but i'd like to hear if anyone else has any good ideas first.
Take care.. and i'll be back again later i'm sure..
Dave
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Post by canadamike on Oct 27, 2008 1:15:14 GMT -5
Dave, in the ''SEEDS I DON'T WAT TO GROW BUT HAVE TO OFFER'' DEPT, nothing stops you to buy bulk and repackage. That way you can focus on your favorites.
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Post by americangardener on Oct 27, 2008 3:56:46 GMT -5
Dave, in the ''SEEDS I DON'T WAT TO GROW BUT HAVE TO OFFER'' DEPT, nothing stops you to buy bulk and repackage. That way you can focus on your favorites. Oh beleive me Michel.. i intend to buy whatever i can in bulk. Problem with this is that the things that are available commercially are also so widely available that if i were to just list those there would be nothing setting me apart from every other seed seller on the net. Nothing unique.. nothing different.. and nothing worth anyone ever giving a second look at my site. Not that i can't find bulk seeds.. some of them for as cheap as a few dollars a pound if i were to buy 90 lb increments of say tomato seeds. So that's not a problem with things like brandywine and cherokee purple for instance for tomatoes. Those i can get all day long for around $40-60/lb.. and from a pound i can get tens of thousands of 100 seed packets. Those i will be purchasing some things commercially... just i only intend to use em for filler to give a larger selection to people when i first start up. My big thing here is i want to offer varieties that are rare. Unheard of even. Some varieties that haven't been grown in decades. Now where do i find these in bulk? Believe me if anyone wants to sell me a pound of Earliana or June Pink at the prices of commercial bulk seeds i'd jump at it in a second. There just isn't anyone coming forward that i can tell. And i do have posts asking people for larger size quantity trades or even that i would buy some larger quantities. I don't really need pounds.. i could probably just purchase an ounce and have it last all year. But, So far not a single person has responded to any of those posts. But you are right.. i don't care if a person has a quantity of seed that they've saved from their own seeds as opposed to any i had sent for trials or increases... i'll buy em.. or trade or whatever deal they want. Seems someone in the other forumn seems to think there is something wrong with this idea. Supposedly i can't be able to tell that they're true to type or something if i were to buy them from someone who's been saving that seed for years. Least that's the way it was suggested to me.. Course i would want pictures and descriptions and family histories or stories or whatever else i could get to use for verification. But, the way i see it i could pay more than what retail price would be for other bulk varieties of those types of seeds and still be able to make a tidy profit. To me it's a win, win, win situation. I get supplies, the seedsaver makes some money, and the customer gets fair prices. I see no difference between me buying bulk seeds from a seedsaver and buying ten seeds from a seedsaver and growing them out for increases myself. So long as i can be reasonalby sure they're the variety the person says. Now if you want to go and help me find some varieties where i could trade or puchase some by the ounce.. i'll be glad to do that. And here i have another problem.. i have about 10 thousand varieties of different veggie seeds altogether. If i were to look em all up in the seedsavers yearbook i'd find approximately 2,000 already being grown. Even if i could talk every one of those seedsavers into selling me bulk seeds. that'd leave me with 8,000 varieties more or less that would never get listed. That's the main reason i'm supplying seeds for trials and asking people to do seed increases for me. For all intents and purposes they just don't exist outside of my basement right now. At least if i get them out to the traders now.. eventually they might end up in the seedsavers yearbook and eventually i might be able to find someone willing to sell bulk quantities. So, even if the people i ask to trial don't ever report back.. i see it as a good thing just to get these varieties into circurlation. You see Mike.. it's all part of the master plan. I'm gonna distrubute my 100 or so seeds i have of each variety to as many people as possible and hope that somehow, someday, someway.. someone will sell some back to me in bulk. After all i can't sell what dosen't exist anywhere else without doing increases on them all .. and i can't possibly do increases on all of the 10,000 or so varieties myself. I try but seems the best i can do in a good year is about 100-200 varieties of each of the main veggie types myself. I've also got plans again for the website.. where i'm gonna be making the offer for trading and offering to buy back bulk quantities of anyone who does growout and save seeds from any of the rarer varieties i'll be listing. This way i may be able to list some varieties where i'd only have a thousand or less seeds. At least it's an idea i think would work.. turn my customers into suppliers.. to supply more customers.. it all fits in with my philosophy of teamwork and people helping each other. Maybe it'll work.. maybe it won't.. but i think it'd be worth trying at least. I can tell you this... you won't find another seed company anywhere that's doing what i'm planning on doing. Dave |
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Post by grungy on Oct 27, 2008 4:29:42 GMT -5
Dave,
Dan hasn't got back to you yet but with most of our grow outs this year, we should be able to supply about a tsp. of each. Will have to get back to you as how we can work this out. If you like next year, knowing now what you have in mind, I can always plan to ferment much larger batches of seed. Wished you had let us know what you had in mind earlier.
Cheers,
Val aka Grungy
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Post by americangardener on Nov 7, 2008 1:39:11 GMT -5
Dave, Dan hasn't got back to you yet but with most of our grow outs this year, we should be able to supply about a tsp. of each. Will have to get back to you as how we can work this out. If you like next year, knowing now what you have in mind, I can always plan to ferment much larger batches of seed. Wished you had let us know what you had in mind earlier. Cheers, Val aka Grungy Sorry i didn't answer you earlier Val. There's no rush on getting seeds from you two. The new website won't be up and running till next fall most likely. So if you want to grow anything at all for seed increases and have me list em on there there's still plenty of time for that. I have been scoping out different website companies to see what's out there. I am sorta playing around with a free website now.. but i'm just trying to learn some things.. it's not gonna be the real one when i do start business. Then i'm debating on which way to go with the startup site. I can get one for free of course.. just like the one i'm playing with. Or i can do it right and get one with all the bells and whistles. There's one i'm considering.. that has the shopping cart included to accept all major credit cards...that has it so that i could set up access to all the records like sales, and all that for different people. Has it set so that it's listed in all the major search engines.. and a bunch of other things i like about it. But then it's $297 a month if i were to list everything i have to sell on there. For $29 a month i'd only be able to have 20 some products. So, i'm debating on getting that for a year maybe.. at least till i get the name recognition on the web and build up a customer base. Then going and finding something cheaper without all the bells and whistles. Or i could just start up with something cheaper and hope for the best... if things don't work out then consider getting a more expensive one. Course i'll figure it out one of these days. Then i'm working on getting even more varieties.. right now i'm going thru the SSE yearbook and culling out the seedsavers who have email addresses. I know.. i'm lazy.. but i don't like writing letters and wasting time with waiting for letters to be sent back and forth the old fashioned way. So, i figure i'd do things 21st century style and contact the ones with email addresses and see what i can't acquire this winter. Course those probably won't make it into anyone elses gardens besides mine.. but i'll have em in my inventory for next years trials. And just so everyone dosen't think i'm slacking off on the business plan. I'm still doing research and putting it together. If you're not hearing from me in here it's probably cause i'm spending time elsewhere doing research. Why i don't know.. i don't even really need this financial projection part in my business plan since i'm not seeking any loans. But, i just like doing it i guess. Gives me an idea what the market is like and what i can realistically hope to acheive in different time frames. Monsanto made 1.6 billion last year... least according to one report i read. I know it's not the same market i'm after.. but it gives me an idea how much money is being spent on seeds. Burpee's made 49 million. I know again not the exact same market i'm after.. and it took them many, many years to build up to that.. and they have 200 employees.. but it gives me a goal to shoot for. Baker creek.. well.. you can all read about Jerres growth in his own catalog last year. Doesn't have financial info per se.. but from a little deducting on my part i can get some ideas how much he'd be making from the 30,000 catalogs he mails out. And i've got a handfull of small companies finacials from their annual reports. Seems a good estimate of where i could be with even poor business management would be around 5-10 million per year at the end of five years. And i happen to think i could do better with marketing thru the internet and having a website which they don't have. So, that's what i've been up to since last post in here. I'm stilll bugging people bout my trials and setting up growers. And i've got two people working on graphics for seed packets, logos, and all that good stuff. So, still working on other projects besides the BP. And now i'm seriously thinking of forming the new corp as a LLC as was brought up earlier. I know i don't have experience doing those... but i have been reading up on em. And it does appear as if the bookkeeping will be easier, the setup can be easily changed over to an S-corp anytime afterwards, and it's cheaper for filing fees. Anyways.. i've got the filing forms for both the S-corp and LLC on my harddrive now. All i got to do is print em out, fill em out, and mail em back to the SEC along with a check. So, that's what's been not happening since last post. I'll get that Business plan done one of these days. I still got about 2 months left to stay on schedule. I know Michel.. more dry boring stuff.. but i gotta do it. Otherwise who will? And i can't even get you guys to help out with names.  Maybe the next update will be more interesting. Dave |
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Post by canadamike on Nov 7, 2008 2:34:15 GMT -5
My poor friend, it is not that it is uninteresting, it is that for most it's way over their head. I was not trying to discourage you of posting, but the opposite. But understand such matters do not call for lots of answers or comments, that's why you had the impression of writing alone. As long as you do not feel alone I'm happy!! |
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Post by americangardener on Nov 7, 2008 12:51:25 GMT -5
I sure am poor!! I'm not so worried about talking to walls Michel.. i do it alot so it dosen't bother me.. and i know there's people following along with interest. That's a nice feeling to know that. My intention when i started this chronicle was to help anyone else considering starting their own business by giving em a model to go by. So dull, boring, whatever, Maybe eventually someone else will find it usefull. I can only hope! Now, perhaps this will be more interesting. As you all know i've been asking for suggestions about what to call this company. I've only gotten a few responses so far.. but this is the one i like most "EveryonesSeeds". It kinda makes my ideas look stupid, so i'm not even gonna tell ya my ideas. But, i like this one for many reasons. First.. perhaps i'm behind the times here.. but from olden days.. i've found that first listed in phone books gives companies an advantage as to number of customers who call them. I feel pretty much the same with search engines.. i figure if going alphabetically this one would be listed right up there in the top. Maybe wrong.. but it's still ahead of what i was thinking. So, that's one reason i like it. Then it has a nice ring to it. It's easy to remember, and i think it has a nice connotation to it. Sorta conveys that these seeds are for everyone. Don't know about you all, but i think a great name has alot to do with customer appeal. Again just old stuff i learned back in high school physcology classes where we used to debate what the difference was with different ciggerrettes and how one company could get the brand appeal and still have exactly the same products as a different company. So, i feel a name has alot to do with everything. And i like this one. Now anyone else got any suggestions before i go and do a name search and see if it's even available? Any and all comments will be appreciated. Dave |
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Post by canadamike on Nov 7, 2008 13:08:39 GMT -5
Alphabet has nothing to do with search engines. They rate you on links you have to other sites. They rate sites .Small ones have a low rating, one busy like here has a high one. You should read about it. Maybe get a consultant. One of the blogs in Europe, either Patrick's or one linked to him explains it very well. I am too much of a computosaurus to know exactly what I said ! But I know it's true. |
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Post by americangardener on Nov 7, 2008 13:33:27 GMT -5
Thanks for the input Michel.. i'll do that and check out Patricks blog again.
Still doesn't rule out phone books. And i'm sure not gonna be calling it Acme seeds. And i still feel it will have some use to have it lower in the alphabet. Perhaps when it starts getting listed on gardening sites, which you know it will eventually. Can't be certain.. but i hope some of em go in alphabetical order.
Anyways.. i still like the name. Even if we just throw out my first reason. I like it better than some of the more popular titles like Myspace, Myplace, or any of those My, My, Mine titles. Least it doesn't have that possiveness that those names would imply.
Dave
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Post by canadamike on Nov 7, 2008 16:05:49 GMT -5
I still have to see ONE person using a phonebook to find seeds. |
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Post by americangardener on Nov 7, 2008 19:38:31 GMT -5
I still have to see ONE person using a phonebook to find seeds. Still trying to shoot me down eh Michel?  Ain't happening. Lets forget about my dumb logic for that first reason. I still like it for other reasons. If for nothing else.. i just do. Can't explain it... but if you could see this vision in my head of what kind of company i'm hoping to have here.. maybe it'd make more sense. What i envision is a company like none anywhere in the world. A company that buys sells and trades with it's customers. Theoritically in my mind a person would never ever have to buy a seed for the rest of their lives. Course that dosen't make a profit and it'd be hard to maintain a company with no profits now wouldn't it? But, the way i see it... there will always be some people who won't or don't growout and save their own seeds. That's where i'm counting on cashing in. As i've said before there'll be other products where i'd be making repeat sales year after year.. the main thing is attracting the customers. Keeping em i'll worry bout later on. Now what i'm envisioning is a place where people could trade their seeds from whatever varieties they do grow out in exchange for new ones i'll have on my site. Sorta like cash if you will... they got seeds i want.. i got seeds they want.. and we swap. They got more seeds than they know what to do with.. and i don't got any of those kinds.. i'll buy em. They got nothing and want what i have.. i'll sell it to em. It's really quite simple.. at least in my head.. or maybe i'm just simple minded.. something like that  But, anyways.. i guess i can't explain it to ya that it just sounds good to me.. I bought everyones seeds.. i sold everyones seeds.. or i traded for everyones seeds. Maybe i got everyones seeds, or i planted everyones seeds.. or god forbidd... i killed everyones seeds and everyones seeds died. ;D So next year.. when you look me up in the phonebook... just look for everyones seeds.. you'll find me. Dave |
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Post by canadamike on Nov 7, 2008 21:24:43 GMT -5
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Ain't happening. Lets forget about my dumb logic for that first reason. I still like it for other reasons. If for nothing else.. i just do. 
. A phone book add in my little area costs 1200$..... That did put me down when I wanted to be there... On the other hand, theyre is the net and its phone lists... I would read info on the net positioning thing. I am sure there must be a guide somewhere on it.